It _is_ however, repeatable, by definition. Problem arises, as you have seen on WC, when folks with normal-size ears figure an endorsement by some "name" turner means there's a magic feather that will allow them to fly.
It is a great disservice to imply the irreproducible....
I just don't understand your problem Dan. Leif has said at least a million times the "process" works. How much more proof could you possibly require? ...chuckle
Darned if I can remember what Brit said it a long while back but it was something to the effect that "there is science and their is faith and between the two I can grasp the universe" There are some things men are not meant to understand and perhaps LDD is one of them.
As to the 'science' of medicine, I have heard it referred to as the Medical Arts. Different people react differently to medical procedures and the physicians operate, perhaps, on averages, on how previous patients have responded. Wife just underwent major surgery and the doc was right on with all of his predictions save a minor one. One can make a good argument for seeing medicine as a science but there are still very large and unknown aspects and for these understanding is more of an art then an established dogma.
Some may claim that using averages is in some way scientific as it deals with statistics. Perhaps. Although as I learned in a time series class from the rather accomplished prof who taught it, it is sometimes a matter of opinion as to whether an observed series is a moving average or an autoregressive function. It's all a matter of how you see the series. Another prof teaching another stats class (Lordy I took 5 of them) advocated the use of the bi-occular imact assessment. And as we students dutifully scribbled his words as holy writ, he smiled. "How is it done?" we asked. Again he smiled and said, "Hold the two graphs up side by side. Close one eye and squint with the other. Than reverse procedure. As long as you can justify one outcome over the other you are covered."
As for Kuhn and Popper and all the rest - the reading for me was dreary and dismal. Whoever it was that called economics the dismal science could expand his definition.
-k
====>A few years ago,I went down that road with the FPL and, if I remember correctly, didn't even get a reply. I also sent an email to Proctor and Gamble setting forth the issue and got a non-responsive, politely dismissive answer from them. As to all the sound and fury emitting above, I am of the feeling that an interested, motivated person with a half-way decent microscope could set up an experiment viewing the action of LDD in the presence of wood cells. I am now accepting donations for the purchase of an electron microscope.*G* A number of years ago, Lyn Mangiameli attempted to run a survey on the use of LDD but got so few responses that no conclusive data could be derived from it.
As it stands now, as it did a few years ago, we are left only with anecdotal "evidence" as the efficacy of LDD. I haven't been able to turn for a couple of years due to back and leg problems, so only have maybe three year's experience with it. As I have had a sovereign experience with it, I highly recommend it. In that time, I have not had to study the nature of wood, as it seems LDD manages to trump such considerations. "Fait ce que voudra" as our Eastern Canadian turners might say. In more usual 'Merikin parlance: "Ya pays yer money and takes yer chances!"*G*
Leif
Dave, No apology necessary, since I wasn't offended in the first place, just setting things straight.
I was hoping someone else would take this on! I have a dozen more projects than I need right now. Dan
LOL! When it comes up to speed the workpiece is a blur of movement. But most cutting is going to be a slower speeds, so its not as scary as you'd think. Also, I have a substantial guard over the mechanism.
I'm not sure what you find funny? I'm not saying the process doesn't work. I think turners will benefit from know what chemical(s) in LD is the active ingredient so we can use just that one and optimize the process. After all, there are numerous reports of LDD failure. It would be good to reduce those, no? Dan
I hear what you are saying and agree with all your points. I hope someone picks up this banner and runs with it. Dan
Is this a great ng or what? It's like letters to the editor, but there's no editor. A repeatable error (science) is truth until one day it's not. I can't ask old Newton, but I know it's so because I read it in "The Journal of Irreproducible results" and that authority verifies all info on rcw posts. :)
Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter
It would/wood be nice if that were to happen, but it seems a daunting task. It's too bad that Leif has problems turning d/t back problems, the slo-mo lunges seem to help my back. PEG OTOH, hasn't done much for wood when I've used it. The wood didn't crack while it was submerged, but it cracked shortly after turning. I did try the permutation of LDD when I first started and found that the type of LDD didn't matter as much as the ration of LDD:water. As I remember, The cheaper, Crystal/Octagon stuff worked as well as the Costco stuff did, but if you went beyond 1:3 soap:water it stopped working acceptably, and that 1:1 was notably better. Most of the problems reported were related to failure to follow directions if I recall. Stuff like, I wiped it on and it didn't work. Or I put one part soap in a zillion parts water and it didn't work. The other popular one was i soaked it and turned it then I let it dry and it cracked. i don't remember any complaints when the wood was soaked in the proper solution, turned and finished immediately. That also is my finding. wipe the LDD off the wood, turn it to final thickness and apply finish w/o allowing ti to dry beforehand.
Good luck, Dave in Fairfax
Just my weird sense of humour Dan. Ignore it....! Once I reached the age of reason I stopped believing in the tooth fairy.. I'm too old to start believing in another fairy tale........ *#!-- LDD stops wood from warping --!#*
OK, thanks for the clarification, Mike. Dan
"Dave in Fairfax" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@fairfax.com...
Oh, thank you, thank you, Dave! Be still my quivering heart! A reproducible result! Come on, boys! Out of the woodwork with you and stand proud and tall and triumphant with your own stories of the success of LDD.
In the beginning, there was the void and from the void anquished cries of woodturners were heard. The Great Woodturner heard their cries and from out of the void appeared "Kirkland Brand LDD." The turners were still in the throes of despair, as the only instructions on the container had to do with washing dishes -- in the sink, no less!! The Great Woodturner took pity on them and called up one of their number on the Mountain and imparted the secret to St. Ron of Kent., who then descended the mountain and dictated the instructions to his acolyte Leif (Sainthood Application: Pending) who proceeded through magickal means to transmit the Word in "The World-famous Treatise on LDD" to the World of Woodturners. But there were scoffers and naysayers about this Potion and they continued to spread doubt and deceit about its miraculous powers over wood. Scientific proof, they cried! Reproducible results they intoned! Quietly, with no fanfare, woodturners began to accept the Way of LDD, content only in the knowledge that they no longer had to deal with the vagaries of wood and the various voodoo ways of readying it for sacrifice in boiling waters, WD40,microwaves, bagging, baking, roasting, freezing, anti-freezing and *GASP!* airdrying for twenty years! The quality of Faith in LDD was in the air and some seized upon it as a drowning man might a life preserver! Slowly the membership grew despite persecution by the Science Inquisitors. Percolating through the group was a desire for a new prophet to appear and provide the proofs demanded of LDD and to still these harpies of the God of Science. And so they wait for the arrival of the new prophet and view with despair the latest in wood treatments: diesel fuel! May the Great Woodturner have mercy on their abused wood! This is an cautionary tale, and its ending is yet to be writ!*G*
Leif
snip of tongue-in-cheek testifying
Leif it won't help. I haven't said anything that hasn't been said before, and unless it's quantified and truly reproducible, it's anecdotal. Problem seems to be getting people to actually follow the instructions. Go figure. %-) The question beyond "Does it work" seems to be, "What is the mechanism." I suspect that until the mechanism is deterrmined the prcess will continue to be seen as witchcraft. Now that doesn't worry me much, one of my in-laws ancestors met an unseemly fate at Salem, but it seems to cast a pall over the souls of some.
Dave in Fairfax
Oddly, this is one method that really does work, though what's left isn't pretty.
The soluble glycol remains inside the cells after drying. Of course, unlike the more magical methods, this and other soaks take weeks or months to get into the wood, and the solutions have to be renewed to retain their effect.
I left the wood in it for a couple of weeks because I wasn't sure how fast it would infiltrate, but the results were less than stellar. Sorry. YMMV.
Dave in Fairfax
Well, I've done two turnings with wet wood, one with LDD, the other without. Neither were bowls, they were both lamp forms of approximately the same height and diameter. with the same finishing method. The one treated with LDD is still looking like it did when I took it off the lathe, and the other has a large crack on either side.
No, that isn't scientific- it's not even a good hypothesis yet, but it is a good avenue for possible investigation, and well worth the chance taken with free wood!
After all this hullaballo, I'm going to make sure to keep a record of things, and try and come up with something that is at least a little better than a mystical alchemical property. *G*
I'll give a go, at the risk of becoming a snake oil man. Don't expect much on it until near the end of next winter, though! Right now I'm on 50 hour minimum weeks at work, so it's better to just whistle and turn when I get the chance than it is to botch up a study because of fatigue. Things'll slow down in the fall, though- and I'll start scratching my head about it really hard then.
I have this visual of you in a controlled environment, using those things that you stick your arms in to handle radioactive material in the next room.. lol
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
I read the book they had at the time - Working Green Wood With PEG - I think it was. Still have a vat for carving mallets, an excellent use for PEG, in my estimation. It fills the voids with that waxy semi-solid, and it draws moisture from the air more than plain wood. Makes for a decent dead blow, with a surface that hits with a damp "thunk" rather than a sharp crack. Easier on the elbow.
Just came in from carving bowls into five spoons with one. Relative humidity is 75% by the hygrometer, so the surface feels almost wet to the touch.
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