LDD advice

Read up on alternatives. They work equally as well.

Welcome to the Group and confgratulations on restarting a religious war. %-) LDD is hand washing detergent for dishes, not machine washing detergent, I've never washed a fairy, so I can't help you with that. Mix the LDD with water 1:1 and soak the wood until you are ready to turn it, 24 hours isn't written in stone, you can soak it for much longer periods. AS SOON AS it is turned finish it. DO NOT allow it to dry. If you have to leave it and then return to it before you are doen turning it, re-immerse it in the LDD while you are away. Your Email addy is not usable. If you send me a usabel one off-line, I'll send you the documentation Leif sent to me. Or you can wait about 20 seconds and he'll make the same offer. Dave in Fairfax

OK, I'm confused. I have read Liefs write up at

havn't tried this yet, but I am set up to with my next batch of green bowlblanks. Liefs Article says: "I would take primarily green wood and rough turn in one day, soak overnight, and finish the next day. Sometimes I didn't finish it on the second day and left it mounted on the lathe overnight and sometimes for a several days. Surprise! They didn't crack!"

Dave in Fairfax says, "AS SOON AS it is turned finish it. DO NOT allow it to dry".

Dave, can you explain why it is better to put a finish on a wet bowl as opposed to one that is dry after using LDD? Isnt the whole idea of using LDD to stabilize the bowl so it is not necessary to finish it as soon as it is turned?

Leslie

But not equal time-wise. No waiting involved when you are turning green wood. 'Course some guys are just enamored with, a-bagging, 'en a-bakin,' 'en a-boilin,' 'en a-microwavin,' 'en a-waitin.

Dave's doing a fine job of 'splainin,' except the 24 hour thing is not necessary

Or none of the above.

http://www.turn> "I would take primarily green wood and rough turn in one day, soak

I apologise, I wasn't very clear. The OP mentioned 24 hrs, what I was trying to say is that the 24 hrs doesn't matter. I generally leave the wood in the sauce until I'm ready to use it. AS for why to finish it immediately, because otherwise it tends to crack. Teh LDD makes it easier to turn and slows the tendency to crack, but you still need to finish it, LDD isn't a finish. It gets removed as you turn the wood, since it only goes into teh surface ofr a certain distance and slows the water's evaporation through the surface. I hope that's a little clearer, Dave in Fairfax

The use of LDD has nothing to do with drying wood. Let me clarify that .... It has nothing to do with FINAL drying of wood. It's use, in this context, does keep it from drying as you are storing the turning. Say, if you have to stop working on the unfinished piece for whatever reason, then the purported benefit of the use of LDD is that it will stabilize the wood as long as the piece is in the LDD and a very short time afterward but not necessarily indefinately.

Once you finish turn your bowl, you'll need to treat it the same as you would if you hadn't used the LDD. This means that the piece will, depending on species, thickness, evenness, etc., need to be dried in order to reduce the chance of getting cracks/warps. You can also possibly just apply a filming finish to seal the piece. This works well if the piece is really thin as there's just no much moisture in there after finish turning to matter too much. This depends on the finished used too. Of course, this method and results are the same regardless of the use of LDD. Unless you have reapplied the LDD to the finish-turned piece, it isn't there anymore and has no lasting effect on it. This assumes, of course, that your finish turning doesn't just involve a small amount of sanding. The LDD does penetrate slightly so that just sanding will probably not get rid of it all.

- Andrew

"Isnt the whole idea of using LDD to stabilize the bowl so it is not necessary to finish it as soon as it is turned?"

No. One of it's supposed benefits is to stabilize the bowl while it is being worked (when you have to leave it partially done for a few days for example ... you keep it in the LDD solution) but not when it's done being turned.

- Andrew

Ya know, I think I just came up with the perfect way to troll this NG. I was kidding about the religious war thing earlier, but isn't this the perfect tack to take. Just ask a question; no, I'm not saying that the OP was trolling. Bob I'm really not. But think, ask about LDD and sit back. Sort of like shoving a stick into a bees' nest. Just a thought, %-) Dave in Fairfax

I don't know about that Dave. Because of the vague and misleading comments of many (here and otherwise) regarding the use of a LDD solution, I think it's a quite valid question. I get asked this same kind of question all the time.

I've love to be able to tell them, at least semi-definitively, one way or another whether it works and what's it best used for and in what situations. At least in a more specific way other than what's been said up to this point. That's why I'm trying to provide, at least to my own self, some actual evidence that I can point to and give better answers. Others seem not to want that. They like the vague declarations that they can make about some mystical presence directing it's use and benefits or something like that. Not that that is what you are doing, Dave.

At the very least, this question is on-topic. Quite frankly, I've not seen the kind of wild free-for-all often seen in a true trolling in regards to the LDD discussion. And am not sure where the often cited great backlash of LDD "opponents" is coming from that requires it's processes and an open discussion to be done in secret. I see no "religious war" or anything else like that in this matter either. It's simply just another way of working with wood and WILL be either proven or disproven once enough people can take it seriously and actually use it enough and in semi-controlled conditions so that we can find out, if not why it works, then in what conditions it does work and how it fits into the myriad other ways of conditioning, drying and treating wood (some sentence eh?). At this point, a lot of the opinions are much like much of religion ... faith is all there is to work with. Unlike much of religion, that will change and there will be actual proven procedures and benefits listed.

I guess my biggest problem with the "LDD issue" is that it seems to many like a mystery (again, perpetuated by many that should know better). Either they blindly use and believe in it (and often later question what they are doing and why they are doing it) or they stay away from it believing it is not worth the time to at least investigate it. I see both of those approaches as sad.

There are far better trolling subjects .... think about scrape/cut or art/craft or even skew/not skew !

- Andrew

AHilton wrote: and I interspersed:

What I was thinking of was "How many times have we been here before?" The same views get aired,and the same questions raised, without any repeatable studies or any non-faith-based conclusions being made.

i'd love to be able to run a set of studies tha answered the does/doesn't it work question and also find out the what happens to the wood in LDD question. The problems, as I see it, are in the details. Finding enough homogenous samples at one time and running them under the same conditions, and then factoring in the different techniques that people use, slice v scrape, high v low speed, sun v shade, temp, humidity, ad nauseam. The devil is in the details. I susupect that the variables will result in wild differences in effectiveness.

I really was joking about the religious war, all though leaps of faith seem to be made by proponents of all the anti-cracking systems. Much like those of gamblers and their systems. Again it comes down tot a lack of empirical evidence and a wide variety of anecdotal. It is a bit scarey though. I mean to have an ON-TOPIC thread for a change.

I think the complexity of the subject is what is causing the lack of objective data. It becomes a very daunting task to attempt to jsut sort out what all the variables are much less control for them. Added to that the variation in wood and you have real problems just setting up any experiment.

I was thinking about the fun we're having over on the wRECk with trolls. But you're right, to skew or not to skew, that is the question. %-)

Dave in Fairfax

Comments inline below...

Which is what I'm hoping to take care of. Of course, it takes time to setup even a small, somewhat-scientific thing like this. I'll have a study ready (as I've mentioned before) in mid to late summer to report my own results along with exacting procedures with readily available materials that anyone can use to do their own study to confirm or deny my results. Unlike some of the other so-called scientific results presented in this forum over the past few years, I'll not just be presenting results with no way for independent confirmation.

Oh absolutely. It's mind-boggling to think of all the variables and how to control them. That's why I'm (and hopefully others with the same intentions) presenting my little study as semi-scientific. It'd take a lot more resources than I have to pull off something truely scientific. I've tried, as best I can, to narrow all of the variables down and record all potentially relevant conditions so that we can get as close to the root of the issue as possible. It's certainly not perfect but it's far closer than the mystical explaination of some.

I completely agree about the leaps of faith. I chuckle each time a turner "finds" something new (to him) regarding ... well, anything, but keeping it in the realm of drying turnings .. and they just go on and on about it as if it's the best thing in the world. Until their next discovery a month later. One month it's boiling/bagging. Next month it's microwaving and then LDD and so on. It's those special ones that take every opportunity to interject ... "OH! Have you tried XYZ ?!?!!? It's the BEST thing and I use it all the time." HA!

I don't have too much of a problem with anecdotal as long as it's presented as such and people take it for what that's worth. Unfortunately, that just doesn't happen very often. Scary, yes.

I covered this a little above and I won't go into great depth here either. It'll all be in the study documentation. I really hope people do take the challenge to do their own independent study in this area. We really do need it for those of us that are truely interested like you and I, Dave. If not my study approach then one of their own. Complexity is a big barrier to entry into doing a study like this, I agree. Hopefully, I've gotten things down to a level where it'll be fairly easy (but still takes time waiting for things to happen/not happen) for people to do but yet sufficient for good data regarding what we're looking at (ie LDD use). It's a narrowly focused study and there's plenty of room for other studies to explore other aspects of the use of LDD. Can I assume that there will be enough people that have ready access to soft maple? No, mesquite isn't in the study for you west Texas turners out there. (it's not like it'd do that wood any good anyway ... it's so stable)

SKEW ! Let the games begin.

- Andrew

===========>SNIP> Good description here, Andrew

Experientially speaking, old chaps, I do not dry my pieces after the final turning and sanding. Although the wood may seem moist, the various finishes that I apply go on very well. I have tried "all" of them with the exception of water-based and that was determined from an experiential suggestion from another turner.

I applaud your efforts in this regard Andrew, to find a semi-scientific basis for LDD's action on wood. As I have previously stated, Lyn Mangiameli attempted to do a survey by presenting a sheet with a multitude of questions regarding how the LDD processed their piece. It was a very detailed questionnaire and most woodturners did not participate; and therefore, no meaningful results could be obtained.

Keep the Faith, Baby!

Leif

P.S. Even if the semi-scientific experiment proves that LDD doesn't work, I will continue to use it. It will always work for you if you have the proper faith and hold your mouth just right! *G*

Sort of like tool grinds, chuck brands and such.

What's drying science? Slowing or stopping evaporation of unbound water will slow or stop the loss of bound water. It is the loss of bound water which is responsible for most of the wood's movement. Thus we have to get the bound water out to stabilize the piece. If we leave it thick enough, depending on ring orientation, we can turn it a second time for true, but thick might allow a steep moisture gradient, collapse of the cells at the surface, and "checking." If we turn it thin to prevent a steep gradient, local differences in grain orientation and density will become distortions.

Some people slow the loss from the surface to prevent checking (soaking,bagging, coating), some increase the flow from within by microwaving or boiling. My favorite is the Scandinavian spoon-carver's recommendation to rub the end grain with a boiled potato. Some just put the thing on the shelf out of the sun and let it dry.

So it takes no double-blind condition-controlled test to determine how wood dries, we know that. We need only evaluate the technique to see if it maintains a controlled moisture gradient. Proof of that pudding is no checks.

Then we apply the scientific discount, because there are all kinds of ways to get this condition.

Anything else seems to me pure opinion, regardless of the poster's pronoun choice. We get a lot of that. People say "you shouldn't" or "you can't" when they really should be saying "I don't" or "I can't."

For the record, I don't, because it purports to be an answer to a problem that never arises at my house.

OK, I am getting the gist of this now. A lot of it seems to be a matter of opinion along with trial and error. One of those things which is not exact or completely proven. I will try it in the near future and I will share my experiences with LDD here in the NG. Thanks for the answers!

Leslie

I'm not surprised that a survey, especially a "very detailed" one, on this subject wasn't a success. Being a survey, it'd only be useful for skin care, whitening toothpaste companies and only the most important political decisions.

- Andrew