I had a pen which didn't seem to show any blemishes until after I had waxed it with pure carnauba wax. Then a divot showed up. It might be covered up by the band (designer style) but the pen is for a long time friend so why not fix it?
So I sanded a bit where the CA was to go, applied it, waited a minute or so and gave it a shot with accelerator.
Instant white out. CA accelerator does not do play nice with carnauba.
The only place not affected was where the fresh CA had been applied.
Denatured alcohol seemed to clear it up, for the most part, but it kept reappearing until I sanded it all off.
Just thought I'd give a 'heads up' to the group. I am GUESSING that it might be possible to remove the carnauba chemically before applying the accelerator but it doesn't appear that alcohol is the solvent of choice.
I suspect that lacquer thinner, MEK, or acetone would pull the wax off better, but I also suspect that they would do a number on the CA ... so I am looking for suggestions -- especially those fueled by experience.
Like dissolves like. Waxes, oils and other non-polar compounds dissolve best in mineral spirits, a non-polar solvent.
Alcohol and water make cloudy rings in the wax, though you should have been able to hit it with a hair dryer and clear it up. The accelerator is a an amine and an alcohol, if memory serves. Steve'll chime in with his article, which I have failed to bookmark, though I think it was posted here. Ketones are semi-polar, like alcohol.
Want to disagree with your analysis of the problem, I don't like using a accelerator on CA for just that problem and also the resulting brittleness of the CA. The white out as you call it, happens without carnauba wax just as well as with it, I think it has more to do with the accelerator and glue having been made for each other, and/or your spritser not being fine enough, never tried it but heard that accelerator in a spray can does have less white-out problems. Anyway I do not believe it is the carnauba wax that's the culprit.
Have fun and take care Leo Van Der Loo
Bill > I had a pen which didn't seem to show any blemishes until after I had
I was taught that if a person uses a technical term (jargon) in a conversation that is not understood by his audience, the ensuing error is his and that it is entirely reasonable to ask him to explain that term.
If I were speaking of railroading and mentioned that the train I was on was running in Manual Block territory under a train order authorizing restricted speed until the yard limit sign at the head-in signal for Yates siding you would have every good reason to request a fuller explanation from me ... and should not be compelled to dig through lengthy tomes looking for the distinctions in the operating rules for the various sorts of rail territory and what the heck is meant by a head-in signal at the Yates yard limit sign. Agreed?
Especially since, by using those terms, I have declared myself to possess an understanding of their meaning in the context given.
Or do you think that I should respond to a query for clarification by telling you, with condescending terms, to go look it up?
You possess (apparently) specialized information. So do I. There IS no rosetta stone. You used jargon. The responsibility for explanation falls at your feet.
I daresay that the bulk of those reading your words in this forum associate the term 'polar' with birds in formal wear and large white bears. Others may be more familiar with a malady known as 'bi-polar disorder'. Still others may recall childhood experiments involving the re-arranging of iron-filing "hair" using a small bar magnet painted red on one end and silver on the other.
I believe asking the person using a term to explain it is a suitable substitute for 'looking it up'. After all, when I ask the speaker (author) such a question, have I not gone directly to an authoritative source?
The corollary is that anyone who knows a topic well can explain it simply.
I DID use the suggested solvent and it DID work.
But I don't see why you couldn't have simply responded with these words (found in the wikipedia article you referenced)
"A simple test for the polarity of a liquid solvent is to rub a plastic rod, to induce static electricity. Then hold this charged rod close to a running stream of the solvent. If the path of the solvent deviates when the rod is held close to it, it is a polar solvent."
rather than addressing me in a condescending manner.
So, oh learned one, let me ask you this in a direct fashion: are ALL waxes non-polar? If not, how, while in the solid state, can I differentiate between them PRIOR to application of a suspected solvent?
My desire was to apply a solvent for the wax without also applying something solvent to the CA deposit.
The following, also found in wikipedia, (to which I am a financial contributor) muddies the water considerably.
"Whilst molecules can be described as "polar" or "non-polar" it must be noted that this is often a relative term, with one molecule simply being more polar or more non-polar than another." --
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Logically, the person who uses jargon has the responsibility of defining it if asked.
That makes me think that the culprit (this time!) was the wax. I've seen (frequently) the other hazing and my best guess is that it is a result of excessive moisture levels. I notice it occurring when humidity levels are high (I'm led to believe that CA is hygroscopic -- water loving) or when I have wet sanded through to the wood and then apply a follow up coat of CA. I can also produce the effect at will simply by not being extremely thorough in cleaning the blank between sandings and follow up applications of CA.
My CA supply is running low ... do you know of anyone doing a group buy?
Words have the same meaning for everyone, else they have no meaning at all. That's why we have dictionaries and encyclopedias - to ensure that outside of John R and Brush good still means good. Polar still means charged in such standard works, therefore you were given appropriate and proper terminology, not "jargon." My reply contained a direct answer, the reason for the answer, and sufficient information for you to verify its applicability. So what is it you were after? At least I expended effort to read the question, unlike Leo, before forming a response.
If you would elevate your knowledge, you have to look up, even if it makes your feel inferior momentarily. You could probably step up a bit more lively if you were not weighted by the chip on your shoulder.
Oh yes, hope you aren't offended by this offer of knowledge, but the reason for the blush, which _is_ jargon for the white haze that forms under finishes, in the region of the CA is that you used an accelerator. The exothermic reaction you initiated drove moisture from the wood in the area, where it condensed in a ring under the finish. That's why we use coasters under hot cups on wood tables. Your use of alcohol just added more water from the top.
Every day is an opportunity to learn and grow, isn't it?
Read that heads up once again, and your problem was not the glue turning white just the wax, sorry never happened to me, but the glue turning white has, and a lot of people like to find ways around that problem, you do understand I'm sure. Would there be moisture droplets formed on the wax ?? for this to happen maybe ?? your pen cold or is this a result of the accelerators ingredients you think ?? Anyway thanks for the reply. Bulkbuy, some woodturners clubs do bulkbuys, in our club we have a turner who sells for less, (a little) that's where I get mine mostly, sorry no much help here.
: Words have the same meaning for everyone, else they have no meaning at all. : That's why we have dictionaries and encyclopedias - to ensure that outside : of John R and Brush good still means good. Polar still means charged in : such standard works, therefore you were given appropriate and proper : terminology, not "jargon."
Well, jargon is often perfectly "proper terminology", since 'jargon' just means technical vocabulary restricted to a subgroup of people, a profession, etc.but (by definition) it's not shared by people outside the area of expertise. Hence not completely "appropriate" in a general context, as it's presumptuous and excludes others from the conversation.
So Bill was perfectly sensible in asking you to give a clear explanation of what's meant by "polar", expecially as he was after an in-shop diagnostic to avoid problems. And at least I'm still confused about what polarity means at a practical level.
There was a fellow on the Yahoo penturners group that used to make bulk buys and distribute the stuff at a significant discount, but I think he got a rec v and went on permanent tour.
I got tired of the group and moved on.
I was wondering if anyone reading this list was interested in filling his slot.
Thank you, George, for reminding me of the Linux newsgroups of 10-12 years ago. Just keep in mind that you can't throw dirt without losing ground.
In honor of the warm memory of those halcyon days in the Linux newsgroups I've decided to make you an honorary member of my kill-file for the next thirty days. Tut-tut ... nothing to be concerned about ... membership is renewable as often as you'd like.
The old, idiomatic, jargon comes sweetly to my memory. Oh, how I love the sound of a good, healthy
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