Time to make a bowl (for use in setting a price)

tww wrote in news:e0fb9a8b-881c-4d73-935b- snipped-for-privacy@m77g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:

I (me) wouldn't consider using Raffan's rule of thumb until I can turn as well and as quickly as he does. This means I will never be able to use his rule of thumb. My rule of thumb is 'hmm, wonder how much I can get for this'. Hank

I agree. It basically boils down to what the market will bear. Here in south central Kentucky, I can get $65 for a spectacular 12 inch bowl that in, say Louisville, might fetch twice as much. Basically, I started by naming a price on what I thought it would sell for. After I sold a few, I managed to understand what the breaking point was and have begun selling a few.

Another thing to remember is that there is a huge difference in selling your bowls as a hobby versus selling you bowls to make a living. As a hobby, I managed to squirrel away enough money to pay for my family and I to fly to Germany in May to visit the outlaws, err inlaws.

Good luck, JD

SNIP

I do. Five bucks for the expendables and 25/hr is what I use for my local market. Goes to double in the city, triple in a gallery. Probably close to charging the same per hour as the individual in that market earns. Fair enough.

I give the customer a break and batch my tasks, so the hours per bowl are about two when turned green and re-turned. Nice wood is sold at a premium even though it comes at the same cost on the woodpile, which helps offset the smaller stuff that has to sell for less.

Nope.. He's a highly skilled PRODUCTION turner and I'm not any of the above.. lol

My marketing leans toward "art" because folks buy art for more than they buy bowls to eat out of.. I have what I consider outrageous prices and folks seem to either run from sticker shock or buy feeling that they're getting "their money's worth"..

I have lots of folks ask how long something took to turn, some to try and judge value but most just curious..

My 2 standard answers are:

61 years, if you don't count growing the tree.. or Quite a bit longer than it took to make your plasma tv..

Also, how much time difference is there in a plain, smooth bowl and a natural edge bowl? Maybe 2 or 3 times as long if you count sanding and changing band-aides? Will it sell for 2 or 3 times as much? Not in my limited experience..

I'd like to get Robohippy's views on Raffan's pricing... He does a lot of production turning and sells a LOT of bowls.. Will it sell for

mac

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I am more in the 'what is it worth to me' camp. A bowl that would have taken me an hour eight years ago now takes about 5 minutes, sanding and finishing time is extra, and at least as much time as turning takes. I timed myself on turning a green Madrone bowl that was about 8 by 3 inches. That would amount to $24 for a bowl that I would sell for $30 to $40. When I add in cost of getting the wood (it is never free, you have to go get it, cut it up, store it, cut it into bowl blanks, turn it, dry it, sand and finish it), along with the shop costs, and business costs, the higher price is more in line. You do have to charge what the market will bear. If you are famous, you can charge more. I used to up my prices in the big city shows, and drop them at home. Once on a whim, I left my prices up when I came back home, and the bowls still sold. If I have to charge sales tax, I mark up the prices to include tax, but on even dollar marks (I don't want to have to carry all that change, and figure out the pennies).

As far as only doing it for a hobby, you may not care if you turn a profit, but your work still has market value, and to sell below that isn't fair to some one who makes a living doing it. Of course, the overall quality may figure into it some, and when I first started selling, my pieces weren't nearly as refined as they are now, in both form, and finish. I always have some factory rejects that I will sell for less.

robo hippy

You are, of course, saying that a plain bowl takes more time than a rough-edged bowl? Does by almost half where I live. I sell 'em a touch cheaper, given the time.

I'm doing them wrong then, George.. I can power sand a plain bowl in no time at all.. A lot of the sanding on natural edge or knotty, barky bowls I end up doing by hand.. I also raise the price every time a wing hits me.. lol

Same thing with pens.. A "normal" pen takes very little sanding, but add beads, tight shapes, etc. and the sanding time goes way up..

I'm lucky here that I have no competition, so my prices can adjust out to average longer and shorter labor times.. 2 of the same type pens, one labor intensive and one normal, sell for $50 each... I could price them at $40 and $60, but it's a lot easier to make each style the same price and let them average out..

mac

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Well, as I said, they take less time here, because they're not twice-turned. I keep my knuckles behind the rest, so I really can't charge a premium there either.

The use of my (sorry, it's what it's called) "Mac Mop" for sanding has really been an asset. I'm even thinking of getting a coarser one this year to see how it does. Expensive, but they appear to be here for the long term, and that'll allow me to split the cost over many bowls. You might want to consider that flex shaft for sanding followed by the mop. One hand for the wood and one hand on the handpiece makes hand sanding a thing of the past.

Ah.. I don't twice-turn any more, so that doesn't factor in... Sort of unlikely that I'll find any green wood in Baja.. lol

I've been looking at mops and "stars" but still can't see how you'd power sand a wing bowl.. All I do is tear sand paper or knock off bark..

BTW: by hand sanding, I meant holding the paper in a padded holder while the lathe spins, though I do some hand or power sanding once in a while after they're turned..

mac

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I use the flex shaft and disks for the 120 on (wet) and 220 off the lathe when dry. Then I take the bowl to the mop on my JET buffer/sander to do the job. The smaller "stars" are great at goblets and boxes, of course. Use them on the flex shaft after flex edge or Kirjes sander. If you carve your turnings, the stars can brighten that up nicely, too.

Back to the flatwork.

Go to

for a fine article by Brian Clifford. Scroll down to Marketing Woodturning Skills and click on Pricing Woodturnery. It covers all you should need to know and a formula similiar to Raffan's.

Good Luck John

I'm surprised no one pointed out the obvious NASA flaw in your calculations... 'tisn't Australia on the metric system? Multiply your figures by 2.54. Tahdah, 2 to 3 times longer.

;)

Hi Owen, Sure is good to see your posts. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't use teaching children, earning a living and debilitating fatigue as excuses for not turning wood and posting here more often ...and that's in imperial or metric! :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

Owen:

Oh how I wish I could agree with you. It would mean I am not at the end of the pack in how long something takes :)

Raffan in his book also has a metric system rule of thumb (ROT) but I did not include it in the original post (ethnocentrism at work I suppose). For a 3" x 10" bowl taking 30 minutes Raffan 's metric ROT used 25.5 cm x 7.5 cm = 187.6. Then his rule of thumb when using the metric system says divide by 6 and you get 31.25 minutes. But like I said I like your numbers better.

Shamelessly ripped off from other turners:

How Long Does It Take To Turn One of Those?

Do you mean? Not plant the tree, but find the wood, just 'see' the piece, (as if I could)? to find a highly figured burl, a crotch, an eye, or pearly curl? And once I spy it, perhaps buy it, inventory, store, and dry it? Then saw or cut it, possibly I kiln it' glue, imbue with fill, or drill it? You mean, that once I'm satisfied it's stopped the warps, checks, cracks, once dried? And mounted on the lathe, to turn it, Which takes much practice, just to learn it; and then employ a gouge, or two, or use a skew, which I don't eschew, to mold it, shape it (what's your pleasure?) by all means, I'm sure to measure, then sand it smooth, please wear your mitts, from coarse to fine, 10,000 grits, then braze, or burnish, paint, or polish, (the goal: enhance, and don't demolish)? Is that your question, start to end, how long's that path, its way to wend? Or do you merely want to know how long it turned? One hour, or so.

Mac Davis, Baja Woodcraft

mac

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