Please help settle a husband-wife argument !!

If your wife has a passion for baking, and wishes to enroll in culinary school, you should support her in her endeavor, reguardless of her potential for income-producing or future professional prospects. While in school, she will find more resources to help her decide if professional baking is suited for her goals and desires.

Nothing is a waste of time if it engages the spirit and feeds the soul.

(delurking to get on a soap box)

While still snuggled in a 'spider hole', snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Mike Faraday) scribbled:

Not much more than minimum wage, unless you go to one of the top schools.

Some do, some never lose the love.

Yes, but that's not the kind of job she'd look for after going to a culinary school.

It would take quite an investment to open your own bakery.

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This sig censored by the Office of Home and Land Insecurity....

. . .

The Boston Globe just did a food feature story on culinary schools and the demand for their graduates.

It's still available online at:

is also a companion story which ran the same day and is about high school kids who are preparing to go on to college-level culinary programs: (You may have to cut-and-paste to get this long links onto one line in your web browser.)

Unfortunately, the tabular comparison of several culinary programs is not available from the Globe's online site. If MrsBear has not tossed it out, I'll try to locate it and post the information. It compared tuition costs, length of program, average graduate salary, percent of students placed in jobs, etc.

Cheers, The Old Bear

I did that when I was 53.. pretty good school. Curriculum mirrored CIA (except shorter of course). Could easily have switched over to a 2 year degreed course.

I would advise her to go to a school that specializes in pastry. That line has the better salaries. My culinary courses spent a very little time on a lot of subjects. The baking instructor gained his Master's Baker status during this time. There were also 2 semesters devoted to baking. Still it wasn't time enough to really learn things BECAUSE .... Becoming good at baking and pastry is much about doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over... I mean years and years.. same thing. You make *a lot* of good looking product. That's what makes a professional not how good tasting your cakes, pies and breads are. A home baker can make incredibly good stuff but will they get up at 1AM and make 300 of them in an hour???

SPEED is very important.. real quick.. place rolls on a hotel pan perfectly spaced and staggered picking up four at a time. Bread makeup... very quick. Lots of muscle trauma. Heavy lifting.

Hours... bye bye happy couple. LOL... almost just kidding. Hours are horrible.

Advise... have her go hang out at a local bakery for a month or so. People do this all the time. Find an small independent bakery that seems interesting. Offer to help out for free. Whatever, the most important things about becoming a professional baker you won't learn in school, believe me, unless you've been baking for a couple years, that's when going to school really helps.

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Mike Faraday) wrote in message news:...

Do not be concerned with wages, once your wife will be graduating from the culinary school she will need some time to practice those learned skills. Worrying about wages is the last thing you will do if you really had a true passion for the baking craft.

Passion for such activity will not wane because as your knowledge increase your fervor for your hobby will intensify.In fact It will be spiritually uplifting experience to some people.

If you are a graduate of such baking school and had such luck in attaining a level of wisdon in a short time; the more you will care less about the difference between mass produced bread as you do with artisanal products. But you will understand it more and will cease to be discriminating, and stop thinking that what is made by plant bakery is crap and what is made by small bakery as the good item. They are just different version of baked products as there are different types of races.....it has its own features. Indeed in business everything should be mass produced for optimum profitabiity. But Quality and quantity are not relative in most cases. As there are niche items that are highly profitable as well.You may need to produce less of unique items (but is sold at higher price) to maintain the desired craftmanship level which will impress your customer, inspire other clients as well as maintain their loyalty. But you must specialize on certain things that you believe has an edge in your enterprise vicinity ,as that will mean more success for your business , than than being a mere copycat.

Any food manufacturing concern is considered a low margin enterprise and that includes bakery business. In addition bakery jobs are not high paying as other non food professionals also.If you intention of running a bakery business as highly profitable then think of something else. You find baking an interesting enterprise then go for it but do not think about that you are earning much money like othes such as for example the IT business people . If one of your intention of studying the course is to gain practical ideas (before you start your own bakery business)you are partly right as most baking schools try to emphasize the commercial side of the baking craft.There are business management subjects that are part of curriculum.In some pastry courses there is even a subject such as how to open and run your pastry or coffeeshop. But to be a succesful businesperson in this line, its preferable to gain first hand experience as a bakery employee )before you run the business yourself.So that you will have a solid idea about the ins and out of the real bakery business. Having laid the groundwork through formal study you will learn the rope faster( than the unschooled bakery workers hence you will progress faster . BE reminded also that Bakery work as well as running a bakery business is a full time job.It is hard work.I have seen many bakery owners who wake up daily 3 am in the morning and sleep at 12 PM at night. In many bakeries the job ia 10-12 hour job specially if you are doing artisanal baking, but usually an 8 hour job if your are an employee in plant baking.

Once your wife has finished the course she will have an idea what particular line of bakery product is she deeply interested and that will be the basis for the product line she will run later. People who are fresh from school are so idealistic that lose the sense of the reality what the bakery business is all about in the long run. I have seen culinary gradualtes who are cocky and had enough funds to open their own business after they graduated but getting bankrupt in a short time. And in the same way I had seen a lot of former employed bakers( who had not even attended a baking school who became very succesful in running their own bakery business. I think the bottom line in running a business is acumen not baking skill.But you will be very successful if you combine both.

Indeed the business word is complex and has many pitfalls for any enterpreneur minded invidual. And you are cautioning your wife (based from your experience). But is not good to douse the avid interest of your better half. What your wife need is an encouraging husband who will help nurture the interest of his beloved . You are his partner then you should never be pessimistic with her interest rather try to motivate here at most....I have a feeling and think,that the real reason for your lack of interest in this line is.... that you just feel insecure if your wife will find herself and independent businesswoman later on.You will lose her respect especially if she will become overly succesful than you are later. On the other hand if.... If she want to know more about her hobby from a professinal setting then its good for her. You should be pleased with your wife's interests. From that study she will improve her baking skills and can provide your family with a more delectable products which become the envy of your friends and neighbors. AS based on experience ,It is likely that soon somebody will start noticing yor wife baking expertise and will begin ordering those bakery goods from your wife and that could become the springboard for his bakery business whether she planned it or not. Indeed Professional Culinary study offers many opportuniities than just practicing a hobby that is devoid of vocational training. Therefore the enlightenment that result from culinary study has its benefits to her hobby and will in likelihood end in a productive and profitable endeavor in the long run. On the other hand..... However if the root of your quarrel is beyond baking,....then there might be other reasons.

If after all those years you are becoming insecure with your marriage and your love for its other is already waning then consult a marriage counselor or a divorce lawyer not a baker. Roy

I was in luck and MrsBear was still in the process of clipping out the interesting recipes -- and had not cut up the comparison table beyond recognition as yet.

Best viewed with a monospace type face like Courier or Corporate Mono:

======================================================================

MAIN COURSES

------------ Snapshots of some prominent cooking schools, nationally and in New England.

ATLANTIC CAMBRIDGE CULINARY CULINARY SCHOOL OF INSTITUTE ACADEMY CULINARY ARTS OF AMERICA Dover, NH Cambridge, MA Hyde Park, NY ----------------- ----------------- -----------------

STUDENTS 250 An average of 2,300 in 200 students degree programs annually

STUDENT/ 15:1 About 9:1 18:1 TEACHER RATIO

COST $35,000 for $19,500 for $18,260 annually 15-month for 10-month program professional's program

PLACEMENT 98 percent 77 percent According to an RATE alumni survey in '01-'02, 98 percent were employed within 6 months

======================================================================

cont'd

FRENCH CULINARY NEWBURY COLLEGE NEW ENGLAND INSTITUTE CULINARY ARTS CULINARY INSTITUTE new York City Brookline, MA Three Vermont locations plus British Virgin Islands satellite ----------------- ----------------- -----------------

STUDENTS About 1,200 160, of which About 700 graduate about 120 annually annually are full time

STUDENT/ 11:1 About 15:1 7:1 TEACHER RATIO

COST About $30,000 $15,500 annually About $21,000 for professional for full-time annually certificate students (6 or 9 months)

PLACEMENT Two to three 98 percent Well over RATE job offers per 95 percent per graduate placed immediately; grads leave with two or three job offers each

SOURCES: School Representatives

======================================================================

I hope this is helpful.

Cheers, The Old Bear

I can't answer specific questions about wages, likelihood of employment, etc. but I think your wife owes it to herself to try. Let's say she has 15-20 years of working ahead of her...might as well be something she enjoys and feels passionate about. Everyone wants that, few actually do it. I hope she doesn't feel dissuaded by her age either. I know a woman who went to law school at the age of 50.

Even if you win this battle, think about whether you'll win the war too - my dad talked my mother out of going to graduate school because he was retiring and he wanted to travel and have fun. My mother had a mind of her own, of course, but agreed to put grad school aside. Years later, she regretted it - and don't think that she didn't resent my dad on some level too. So that's something to think about, whether your wife is going to feel as though you've put the kibosh on her dream or not.

I don't know much about the catering business, but is it possible for her to try her hand at this before committing to opening her own bakery? Get an idea of demand, build contacts, etc.

It sounds like you're really concerned about the financial implications of this; is there a way you can sit down with your wife and sketch a business plan for a future bakery? If you're "too close" to the issue, is there an impartial third person who can talk with her about the logistics of financing, etc.?

Wendy has a good answer on one level; here's another take on the question.

Remember, baking is an hourly-wage job, and may necessitate union membeership.

Think of how many people graduate culinary school and are still in the industry 10 years later. I have no data, but given the failure rate of food-related businesses -- restaurants, bakeries, etc. -- I don't think it's anything to write home about. The other question should be, "Will you spoil a hobby by making it a business?" That's a real danger and more than anecdote. The woods are full of stories of people who loved to cook and opened a restaurant. Typically they fail within a year. Admittedly, this is anecdotal evidence, but where there's smoke there's fire.

I think the process has just started. However, I take a more sanguine view on this phenomenon. I think that while the parbaked goods will push out the inefficient and "me-too" bakers, it will give the public a taste of and for good bread. The next level is Mr and Mrs J Q Public searching for different, maybe local varieties from local bakers. Offer good product, something that represents value and is a bit different, and you stand a chance.

Isn't owning your own business always a more-than-full-time job?

In the final analysis, the best thing to do is talk to a bunch of people in the business. Find a good local bakery and ask for a job there for a few months. Get an idea of what a typical day is like and what goes on. I admit this isn't the course of action that she is planning, but baking isn't rocket science and doesn't require a lot of education to get started in the industry. She will find out whether her dream can stand the cold 4AM starts and the 120 degree kitchens. After she's worked there for six months, she will be better able to decide what she wants to do and what the prospects are in the industry.

Barry

Yeah, my mother wanted me to enroll in the culinary arts program at Utah Valley State College when i got laid off from my software job and couldn't find another.

She's was under this impression that i could jump right from their two-year program to a life long career with no speed bumps, because her friend's son jumped right from their (admittedly well respected) CA program to the head chef at a country club. Never mind that I've eaten at said club and don't recommend it. Doesn't understand that this sort of job probably happens to maybe the top 2% of any graduating class, and the vast majority of graduates probably spend the first year or so doing vegetable prep for less than you'd make at a gas station.

Of course, my mother grew up during a labor shortage in Oakland and literally got all of her early jobs by walking around the business district and looking for "help wanted" signs.

My father is equally warped - but in an entirely different way. Wrangled for a summer job at a sheet rock factory when he was a teenager, showed up, joined the union, had a day of training, and then lived on strike wages for the whole summer because there was a rail strike and he was at the tail end of a 70 mile rail way at the gypsum mine and couldn't get home. Read the completed works of Shakespeare all summer, decided he wanted to be an english major. Became an english major, got a doctorate, got tenure, fast forward 30 years. Yeah.

My parents didn't understand what exactly the job market has been for the last two-plus years until they decided to have some work done on their roof, and had six estimates within two hours of posting an ad that they were seeking bids. More than 20 estimates within 24 hours. Suddenly realized, "Hmm, people seem to be hard-up for work." and became very sympathetic.

Most new businesses fail within a year, there are mountains of empiric evidence supporting this statement. Sit-down restaurants are a particularly difficult business, often with razor-thin profit margins. It's anecdotal, but it's said that if you have $40,000-$200,000 that you need to shove down the dispose-all, by all means open a restaurant.

Bakeries obviously are different, but not entirely different.