Problem with formula for "Hard Dinner Rolls"

Hello Rich You did not give the timing for your dough make up., resting period after mixing, after scaling and rounding, etc.

But anyway Your recipe appears underhydrated...if you are using a bread flour...and a lean dough.you need to use a water of at least 60%. The hard rolls I make for a certain restaurant is slightly similar to your recipe but has a hydration of 63%. Another thing is your dough might be warm so promoting the yeast to rise faster making the dough balls gassy... Did you ever rest the dough balls before rounding and molding...? A freshly divided firm dough is easy to round...but if overrested ...it becomes bucky...to mold that it does not form a ball easily...but deforms to an odd shape.

Controlling the dough temperature is one way to prevent this from occurring; warm dough rise fast and difficult to mold... Another thing is if the dough was exposed to the ambient low humidity, the surface dries up fast making it difficult to round/mold as well. Cover your dough while resting with a damp cloth. Another way if the dough balls appear dry to the touch and difficult to mold In that condition...I wet my hands slightly with water before I round /mold the dough...and it helps...

chembake,

After considering all you told me so far, My first attempt will be to follow your first suggestion: change the hydration to about 60% and see how that changes everything. I went through your reply and inserted my comments throughout (below):

I benched the dough for about 20 minutes before I portioned it into 2.25 oz balls. The temperature in the bake shop was about 75 degrees that morning. The proofing box was set at 80 degrees with 80% humidity. I proofed the balls about a half hour before baking them.

I agree. I need to rework this formula. It is not "mine." I got it from my baking instructor. I love to use MS-Excel for this purpose. I can simply change the percentages and voila! The numbers all change accordingly.

Yes. As I said in a previous paragraph, I rested it on the bench for about

20 minutes at room temperature with a clean plastic garbage bag over it.

I'm a little unsure what "Bucky" means. I did a Google search on "bucky dough" and got results like underhydraded, overkneaded, dough that's too cold, underproofed and overproofed. These web sites told me why the dough might be bucky but didn't really explain what bucky means. I can infer from your explanation that bucky means that, "it does not form a ball easily ...but deforms to an odd shape." If that's true, then yes. My dough was definitely bucky.

One problem I have in the mornings is that I have too many things to do to allow proper rise. Maybe I could mix the dough the night before and immediately--without allowing any rising--put the dough into an oversized

*lightly* oiled stainless steel bowl with plastic film over it and place it in the "reach-in" refrigerator overnight. Then in the morning I could take it out of the refrigerator and as soon as the dough reaches room temperature form the balls and proof. That could give the dough a chance to rise much more slowly. Would that help or make the situation worse?

Southern California is more arid than some other places. I used a piece of plastic to cover the dough instead of a damp cloth.

I do that. Actually, I keep a little cup of water on the bench and, as needed, I wet my fingers and wet the bench with the tiny bit of water on my fingers so that the balls don't slide around on the bench when I'm trying to roll them out. The tiny amount of water seems to give the balls a little trackion on the bench

After considering all you told me so far, My first guess is to follow your first suggestion: change the hydration to about 60% and see how that changes everything.

Thanks a lot!

Rich Hollenbeck

Changing the water to 60% helped a lot. But it's still not making hard rolls. The rolls were delicious, but they weren't hard rolls. So I lowered the sugar and fat content:

Water 60.00% Instant yeast 1.50% Bread flour 100.00% Salt 2.25% Sugar 1.13% Butter 1.13% Egg whites 2.25% Yield 168.25%

I'll report back with the results.

Rich

It just came into my mind the nature of some restaurant bread flour...I worked a few times in that situation where the purchased bread flour( especially overseas) approximates in gluten strength to all purpose flour and indeed we use a hydration of below 60% for such the range is

54-57% %.. the protein content of that restaurant bread flour was just above 11%. But not reaching 12% Another things is in fast paced situation such as in restaurant bakery/kitchen the bakers don=E2=80=99t bother much if the dough is optimal= ly hydrated or not. They don=E2=80=99t want to make a sticky dough but not also a very firm one.. In most cases the dough consistency is always in the firm side.

=EF=83=98 I love to use MS-Excel for this purpose. I can simply

When I was a baker in that situation like yours I did not have the luxury of a computer rather, I just use a pocket calculator to do my fast computations from scaling up to scaling down of batch weight as dictated by the executive chef .

The night before we are given the number of pieces of the different bread to be made and knowing the scaling weight for each unit we compute to get the total dough weight then Calculate the amount of flour based such dough weight then we can derive the ratios of the other ingredients based on the formula ratios we had in our recipe files.

In bakers percentage, the flour is the base ; that is considered as

100% Regardless if you vary the amount of other ingredients such as water that is the only material that you have to change the rest are as is. 3=2E0 lb Water 55.00% 3=2E0 oz Fresh yeast 3.50% 5=2E5 lb Bread flour 100.00% 2=2E0 oz Salt 2.25% 2=2E0 oz Sugar 2.25% 2=2E0 oz Shortening 2.25% 2=2E0 oz Egg whites 2.25% Therefore if you change the water to 60% you will use the same ratios for other ingredients such as for example the salt remains 2=2E25...etc... In many cases as the softer dough appears to ferment faster we reduce the yeast slightly to compensate for such. Its different if you are using the true percent where varying one ingredients will correspondingly change the ratios of the other components .

Anyway true percent is not used much by bakers but in other food processing systems.

.=2E>.but deforms to an odd shape." If that's true, then yes. My dough was

Its nice to see a resourceful person who was able to comprehend the word seldom understood by beginning bakers. Yes if the dough tends to remain elastic and does not maintain its shape after molding due to many factors that you mentioned above its considered as bucky. A dough like that is difficult to mold and usually results in a misshapen appearance in the finished bread..>

*>lightly* oiled stainless steel bowl with plastic film over it and place it

Mixing the dough the night before is one option as it will result in better tasting bread due to the longer fermentation. Unfortunately most restaurant kitchen has limited space for such unlike bakeries. When I was working in a hotel and restaurant bakery some twenty years back where many things are done such as breadbaking, cakes, and pastries , even chocolate items we have to use whatever available space, the elbows of the pastry cook and bakers often met and we have to work out fast necessitating the constant use of short time dough system. In our breads. In all those experiences, I never find the bread from hotels and restaurant to be good tasting ( except when freshly made) if compared to what I experienced in the bakery where the dough is made slowly and had ample time for fermentation.

Rich, Further In those kind of bread made in house We used the short time dough system like what you are doing right now. The dough temperature right after mixing was 29 degree C. and the room temperature was 25 degrees.C What we do after the dough is mixed its allowed to rest for 15-20 minutes then scaled up and rounded, then given intermediate proof of 15 minutes before final molding. It is proofed for 30-45 minutes then baked with lots of steam at 230 degree C. at the start; the damper is pulled out halfway then baked dry until done. Baking time is in about 20 minutes. .=2E But often times my hydration for hard rolls is in the realm of 60%. As we are using mostly higher protein bread flour ( around 12-13%)..

A hard roll if properly made should have a slightly thick crispy crust with soft crumb..It should have very slight chewiness A too firm roll dough tends to make a chewier hard rolls that many customers don=E2=80=99t like and won=E2=80=99t even finish eating one but = just leave it on the dinner plate... That incident gives the bread baker a food for thought if he is doing his bread the right way.

Changing the water to 60% helped a lot. But it's still not making hard

rolls. The rolls were delicious, but they weren't hard rolls. So I lowered the sugar and fat content:

Water 60.00% Instant yeast 1.50% Bread flour 100.00% Salt 2.25% Sugar 1.13% Butter 1.13% Egg whites 2.25% Yield 168.25%

I'll report back with the results.

Rich

I am not sure how you describe a hard roll in your place. but in mine just what I mentioned in my recent post. It should have a crisp crust with sort interior and slightly chewy to masticate.

Is that similar to what you are expecting from your bread.?

In my expeience a dough that has lower hydration tends to form a really hard roll; hard to bite and to chew (all the way)...but that is not considered a quality bread from our standards...

Thank you very much for your insightful advice. I'm studying it now.

I'm seriously thinking about buying the book, The Bread Baker's Apprentice: Mastering the Art of Extraordinary Bread by Peter Reinhart (ISBN:

1580082688). I've read mostly good reviews about it. Any thoughts?

Rich

.>Mastering the Art of Extraordinary Bread by Peter Reinhart (ISBN:

1580082688). I've read mostly good reviews about it. Any thoughts?

For a home baker that is a must...but for an institutional baker( restaurant or hotels) the book by Wayne Giesslen titled Professional Baking is what I recommend as the recipes and methods there reflect whatis being used in the bakery.

Another one is Quantity Food Prepaation..in the bakery section . .unfortunately I cannot remember the authors name. It includes the description of what a good hard and soft roll should be..

When I was still connected to a baking school as a part time teacher I recommend it to my students. Another books highly recommended to beginning bakers for institution is Practical Baking by William Sultan. As well as the advanced book The Pastry Chef by the same author..

I had browsed that Sultain book some 10 years back I vividly remember the good points mentioned in making quality bread for institutional use...including good versions of hard rolls... In fact the bakery manager of the hotel restaurant which I describe in my previous post have those books in his offfice library: The works of Giesslen, and Sultan... Check it out in your nearest library...Unforunately I cannot remember its ISBN number but the author and the title is correct.

Are you referring to this book? Quantity Food Production, Planning, and Management

Hmmn...that author sounds familiair .....might be ......but the book cover is not the same from the editions I browsed in the early 1990s. Yes it was in the bakeshop section where the description of what a good bread rolls should be... I am not sure about the breadth of the cookery related discussion in that latest edition if compared to the earlier ones. Its likely that in recent edition new ideas about quantity food production management is emphasized rather than the techniques of preparing fdifferent ood products in institutional quantities ...

The original title was "Standards, Principles and Techniques in QUANTITY FOOD PRODUCTION"

Pastorio

Yeah...that title is more like it!...I remember there was one author... Thanks Bob....I think Reg description suit as well to the later edition....I have not seen a copy of that book for years...

You're right. I'm looking for a soft interior, but when I crunch into the outer crust with my mouth, I don't want the roll to flatten down like a hotdog bun. I think it should somewhat keep its shape. I increased the hydration to 100% and reduced the fat and sugar to 1.125% or 1.13% but I'm still getting that soft feeling from these DELICIOUS rolls. I raised the heat to 450 but that didn't help much either. I mixed a little water into the egg whites that I wash over the outside. Still. My next step will be to reduce the yeast a little. The original recipe called for fresh yeast but I don't have any. I got a large quantity of instant dry yeast from the Sam's Club so I converted the amount and have been using that. Originally it called for 3 oz of fresh yeast so I used 1 oz of instant. It's rising like crazy. With more hydration I probably don't need as much yeast. I'll try it anyway.

*** By the way, I'm doing all this at home. I wonder if it's the oven itself. At work we use a convection oven. We don't have steam injection there either but we use the "pan of water trick" just like I do at home. I'm trying to tweek this formula to get a better product, but I think I might need to try it at work before I go much further.

A proper hard roll is made with a strong flour,mixed ,fermented and baked properly. Increasing the hydration above 60 % is counterproductive, you are going beyond the right standard for such roll. The recipe is simple somewhat like Vienna Bread with minimal sugar and fat. These latter ingredients are added to minimize the crust thickness that is not desirable for rolls. Another way of doing the hard roll recipe is make it in sponge and dough system.70/30 or 70% of flour is in the sponge and 30% in the dough stage but I doubt if you have time for that.. Regarding yeast it makes no difference as long as the usage rate is properly converted for a particular yeast.

One of the important requirements of a good hard roll is presence of steam during the initial stage of baking. Convection oven due to its drying effect needs more of it.

I have never been able to make the best hard rolls with that kind of convection oven without steam injection.... I have used a Revent convection type oven with steam injection where we load the entire rack and the rolls come out perfect.

Therefore in conclusiong don't be enthusiastic about hydration but keep it in mind that shape, resliency, and crustiness is a function of proper hydration, fermentation and baking process assuming mixing condtions is constant.