OT: Oppositional Defiance Disorder.

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 19:18:25 -0400, Kaytee wrote (in message ):

Last two "bad choices"-- Wed night, he decided he "didn't need" a ride home > from work, so he skateboarded. At 10PM. Along a highway (55mph posted > limit). A > dimmly lit highway. With headphones on. I went out looking for him-- he > didn't > hear me until I was right behind him, although I had honked several times.

Neither my siblings or I had diagnosed ODD as your son has, but we sure made Mom earn her gray hair, so take my suggestions/advice/similar situations with a grain of salt.

If we didn't arrange a ride home from work, we had to get ourselves home. Usually that meant hoofing it -- and we all were working by the time we were

  1. If you could arrange it with mom beforehand, she'd come get you, but it cost: she charged for her gas and time, maybe one way, IIRC. If you worked until late at night, the ride was free. The idea was to get us to use public transportation if at all possible. Since the bus cost 14. If you could arrange it with mom beforehand, she'd come get you, but it cost: she charged for her gas and time, maybe $2 one way, IIRC. If you worked until late at night, the ride was free. The idea was to get us to use public transportation if at all possible. Since the bus cost $0.10 (student fare), and a cab was $10, you took the bus or walked home from work (4 miles, in my case). Same for my brother, except he bought a bike and used that as his back/forth when the weather was nice..10 (student fare), and a cab was , you took the bus or walked home from work (4 miles, in my case). Same for my brother, except he bought a bike and used that as his back/forth when the weather was nice.

It turned out to be the easiest for our younger sister. She worked 4-7 p.m. at a local hospital as a dietary aide (kitchen help). By the time she was working, I had my own car and picked her up from work. She would walk the

1/2 mile from the high school to the hospital, and I'd be waiting at the door when she got out. I didn't think of it as a big deal, but recently she told me how it made her feel so cared for, to have your sister and her "new" car every day without fail, with a bottle of ice water in the passenger seat. (There's always an ice cold drink for the girls when I pick them up, too. It's such a little thing, and they're always parched) For free!

BTW, the car was only new to me. It was a 1975 Plymouth Duster, customized and gorgeous. I named the car Priscilla, and have never loved a car like I loved that one. Worked a third job over a whole summer just to buy her - the used car guy would get my weekly payment, and once I had $1,800, she was mine. Priscilla gave her life for me when I got squashed by the Mack Truck. She's still remembered as a great car.

It sounds like your son needs a similar arrangement to ours, with the added condition that skateboarding at night isn't safe. If he's a nit-picker, night is defined as the time that the streetlight in front of your home comes on. If your town has good public transportation, mention that a bus pass as his best option. At any rate, sit down with him and mention that right now his transportation options are unacceptable to you. Sit back and let him brainstorm for a while and see if there's an option that you both can can live with. A Mom ride that costs "X," a bus ride that costs "X/10," a free walk (after the reflective safety gear is purchased), a free ride from a reliable friend (a great way to find out just how reliable your friends really are) or maybe some other option your son comes up with.

List the pros and cons on a sheet, and each of you can talk about your preferences. It may well turn out that he thinks that walking or biking home is the best option, but that's his option. If he thinks that Mom picking him up at varying hours is best, remind him that there's a cost and that you don't provide credit. (My brother tried to cadge some free rides, then the policy was changed to "pay the second you get in the car.") Regardless, at

17 (I think), it is his decision, and he might think a lot more kindly to arranging rides at the beginning of the week after he's spent a long, rainy muddy walk toward home after a tough day.

BTW, he is paying you for the privilege of living in your home? That was something that my mother insisted upon. The second you start working, a significant percentage of your earnings was your room and board fee. Each and every time I got a raise, my expenses went up accordingly. Part of it that Mom really needed the money to feed us, but part of it was the simple fact that people who work have bills. Oh yes, if we got canned for not showing up (my brother) or telling restaurant customers about the roaches (my sister), your board debt accumulates until you get a new job. Then Mom "couldn't afford" to run the house, meaning that all the good stuff: cable, junk food, going out, using the car... all were on hold for everyone until the slacker got a new job. Sibling pressure was way worse than parental pressure, because we had no detectable affection for one another.

Today-- seems he didn't check his work schedule... he's supposed to be there > now, and he's gone to a movie with his gf (new gf-- this one is "of age", > and a > much cheerier person than the last). No way to contact him.

Oh well. If he gets fired, his debt will accumulate and all the goodies of life go away until he can start working again and repay the debt. Or maybe he'll find that groveling at his current boss will make a difference.

Left a mess in

the > bathroom (they dyed his hair) and the living room (computer area "trashed", > various items like TV remote on the floor, etc).

Public areas of the house must be left in guestworthy condition. Otherwise, there will be no access to those public areas of the house until such time as the offender proves responsible. Only took my brother about a day to figure out that he was going to be hungry when barred from the kitchen after leaving it in a mess. That didn't happen again. BTW, sibling lack of affection works wonders when someone isn't allowed in a specific area of the house. We couldn't wait to rat out the offendee the moment that Mom walked in the house. Bedroom is about calf-deep

in > dirty clothes and "stuff"....

It's his room, at least for now. As long as his filth does not effect the rest of the house in any way, including bugs and odors, he can wallow all he likes. I'd insist upon a semi-annual swamp out, to make sure that there are no bugs and that the fire exits can be easily accessed.

If he shares a room, he needs to negotiate with his roomate for an acceptable level of disarray. If at all possible, put everything in writing. You both speak, he writes. That way, he can never say he didn't know about X, Y or Z. Make and keep hidden copies of the contract, in case it "gets lost."

He's been told to be home by 7PM-- if it's

anything like the last few times, that will mean midnight or later (after > all, > he's a "not a kid" anymore, and "shouldn't have to have a curfew")....

What happens when you get to a store when it's closed? It's locked and you can't get in. I'd warn about this possibility happening _once_ and then do exactly as you said. He'll sleep with a friend, probably stay away for a night or two to "punish" you, but he'll be back. He might even do it a second time, to test your resolve. If he gets the same results, he'll know you mean it, and should be a lot more attentive to the passing of time.

he's a "not a kid" anymore, and "shouldn't have to have a curfew")....

When I was a teen, I poilitely reminded that the State maintains laws that decree that I was indeed, a child, and that children are not supposed to be in public places between one and five a.m. Our town is stricter than that -

10 p.m. on weeknights, midnight on weekends. Even if there is no official curfew where you live, you, as the responsible adult for this child (and the state does hold you responsible for this child), deem it to be in his best interest to have his behind in the door at 7 p.m.

If he is close to legal age, you might want to suggest he speak with his school guidance counsellor about the procedure to declare him emancipated. Speak with the guidance counsellor beforehand, so that she can let your son know what this means - no parental support, work to live, no safety net. Being a kid will suddenly seem a lot more attractive.

As for me, I needed to be persuaded to move out. Mom decided that raising my rent to $200/week would do it. Sure did. I had my own apartment, toute suite! (And I took my damn dog with me!)

Thinking back on it, I think my brother may have had ODD, and my sister definitely had ODD. They ran my mother ragged. I remember doing a lot and not getting caught, but my siblings say that Mom had always known about everything. It's just my level of being bad was so far removed from their more creative adventures. (one small example) My sister drove a friend home before she had a license, because the friend was too drunk to drive. Problem was, they were both 13, and it was the friend's mother's car. My sister ripped both doors off the car by backing through an alley with the car's doors open. My sister negotiated with a body shop to have it repaired on layaway, and worked an extra job to pay for it. She also got grounded, which meant "solitary confinement," which drove her crazy.

Hope this helps, at least in knowing that you aren't alone.

Kathy N-V

Reply to
Kathy N-V
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vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Kathy N-V :

]Hope this helps, at least in knowing that you aren't alone.

"tough love" really is tough. sometimes, it does work, tho!

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

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's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

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vj

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:31:15 -0400, vj wrote (in message ):

Is that "Tough Love?" I've heard so much about it, but DD has never given me a lot of heartache, so I never read up on it. My mother called it "Be Grateful You Have A German Mother."

That's pretty much what I call it too, except that my version is way less harsh.

Related anecdote: P/T D is slowly transitioning back to living with her mom. Now that her mother is off welfare, gainfully employed and actually getting two cents of child support, she's a lot more tolerant of P/T D's personality. Also, when we had her daughter, she could make her check last long enough to feed her other two children. For a while there, her mother was talking about giving her up to us, and although we would have gladly taken her, we're delighted that P/T D isn't going to experience such a wrenching rejection.

The mom calls me all the time to find out what I did do when P/T D did something the mom didn't like, say fighting with her brother. I'd tell her that all combatants had to do chores until I thought they had learned their lesson. Usually chores that they would have to cooperate to accomplish. If we were out, the trip was immediately over, so we could go home and dust furniture, or wash and re-hang the curtains. Yucky chores for both parties make starting an argument much less attractive.

Why both? Because I noticed that 90% of the time, it was the quieter child that started the confrontation. It's just that the one freaking out at the moment had been pushed to her limits.

The times that P/T D are coming here are less frequent, and less troubling. She comes here because she misses us, not because she had a huge fight with her mother and has no place else to go. P/T D informed me today that her "Varraso Birthday Party" will be on Friday, her "Home Birthday Party" will be next Saturday, and "if my dad ever remembers my birthday," she'll celebrate with him on Sunday.

Anyway, I figured we would be back to a three person household Real Soon Now. No such luck. Another little girl has been coming home from school with DD, and they do homework together. Invariably, homework time stretches for this child until dinner time, which she wolfs down when with us. Her mom will not pick her up at the end of a play date, preferring that she walk the half-mile. I wouldn't have a problem with this in the daytime, but there are three wooded areas she'd have to negotiate at night, and there are vagrants hiding down there. It's not safe.

Yesterday, when I was driving the girl home, she thanked me profusely for letting her in my house. I told her she was welcome anytime. She looked startled and jumped. "Well, you might be sorry you said that. My mother is always saying she's going to kick me out, and last week I was kicked out for two hours before she let me back in. I don't mind it so much in the summer, because it's warm at night, but it's starting to get cold."

Apparently, this thirteen year old and her twelve year old "baby" brother argue constantly. Mom works all hours, and when she's home, she's sleeping. The bickering keeps her up, and the girl is the louder of the two. So, she gets sent to sleep in the yard or the woods. :-0

I told her that if anything like that happens, she's more than welcome to come here. If it does happen, we'll move the beds around again, and I'll speak with her mother. Perhaps Mom needs a break from all the responsibility. Sigh. It's another kid that cringes when I go to hug her. my daughter expects to be hugged by her parents a hundred times a day, holds hands with me while shopping, and kisses us in front of school, right where her friends can see her. (Most of her classmates have had me hug or kiss their cheek at one time or another, too) I really, really hate it when a child thinks that all adult contact is going to be a whack, and automatically flinches.

I feel like I'm running "Kathy's Home for Good Kids in Bad Situations."

Kathy N-V

Reply to
Kathy N-V

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Kathy N-V :

]Is that "Tough Love?" I've heard so much about it, but DD has never given me ]a lot of heartache, so I never read up on it. My mother called it "Be ]Grateful You Have A German Mother."

more or less, yes. i've been lucky - haven't had to go quite that far. but it's basically setting very defined limits and then sticking to them to the point that the child may very well end up locked out if necessary. it's especially hard when you realize that they will keep testing you, over and over, convinced that at some point, you will give in and they can go back to their old habits.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

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's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

Reply to
vj

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Kathy N-V :

]I really, really hate it when a ]child thinks that all adult contact is going to be a whack, and automatically ]flinches. ] ]I feel like I'm running "Kathy's Home for Good Kids in Bad Situations."

i, personally, think it's WONDERFUL!!!!

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

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's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

Reply to
vj

public transportation, mention that a bus pass as his best option. At any rate, sit down with him and mention that right now his transportation options are unacceptable to you. < He has been told-- several times by several different people, including police officers-- that it is unsafe for him to be traveling outside a vehicle along the highway, even the sections with a sidewalk, at night. He has been told over and over and over... that it is unsafe to be wearing headphones while either on the skateboard no matter where he is OR while just walking in a traffic area. He has a bus pass, but there is no public transportation available "from here to there" that doesn't involve long trips elsewhere and switching buses a couple of times-- to be let out with about a mile to walk anyway. He has been told to CALL when he is ready to leave work (his late nights are when he helps "close", so it can take a while, depending on how many people are there). He knows it is "unacceptable" for him to walk/'board home at night, and that the rides home are free.... However, he is "grown up now" (not quite 18), invincible, invulnerable, omniscient, and immortal, and his parents are stodgy and too controlling....

Not yet. That is due to start at age 18, per a written contract which detailed how much (%) and of what. Not as strict as your mother's, but there isn't the financial need, and cultural backgrounds are different-- Hubby is of Japanese background, and kids essentially are still dependants as long as they are in school, no matter how old they are. He is responsible for any clothes, books, make-up, etc. He also has to contribute to an IRA (since he started working), and buy his bus pass.

there will be no access to those public areas of the house until such time as the offender proves responsible. < This also has been said over and over and over.... And, how does one "bar" someone like him? He refuses to "accept" any such restrictions. And, he's bigger than me.... If he wants something, unless it is LOCKED away from his access, he will take it.

decree that I was indeed, a child, and that children are not supposed to be in public places between one and five a.m. Our town is stricter than that -

10 p.m. on weeknights, midnight on weekends. < San Diego also has the 10PM rule... he knows it, but he always has an excuse on why it doesn't apply to him.... And why the "house curfew" is unreasonably restrictive.

school guidance counsellor about the procedure to declare him emancipated. < He's now in college, and has less than a month until his 18th b'day.... His various therapists/councillors have gone through all the "independant living" thing with him-- that was a big part of the residential treatment center he was at. He has all the "book learning" down pat; he can quote nearly word for word what he's "supposed to do". Still, and despite the problems he's had getting enough hours to earn enough to pay for his WANTS, he doesn't think it will be any big deal to live on his own-- in a great apt, with great roommates, with no restrictions on his activities (ie, play his music as loud as he wants, whenever he wants), and still have all the "toys" he wants, and plenty of time to play with them.....

Reply to
Kaytee

I'm glad you try to help the parents, too. But giving a child a refuge is a wonderful thing when things are bad at home. Helps them understand that the situation isn't a true reflection of -their- value to others, or happening because they are 'bad'. In a different environment, things really are different. And that helps the kid know to look for favorable environments. A thing well worth learning.

Deirdre

Reply to
Deirdre S.

I wholeheartedly agree. The world needs more "MOMS" like Kathy!!! With enough love to give EVERYONE!!

Pain free hugs to all concerned!

Later,

Helen C

Reply to
Helen C

Thank you for the good explantion of what I'm going through (I've tried to snip as much as I could but there's a lot there) And you're very right about the beading. I can go and "hide" in my room (locking the door if nessesary) and do my bead therapy. Or sleep if that's what I need more. And thanks for mentioning I DO have job skills. I'd crochet but then I'd have yarn strewn EVERYWHERE (BTDT), same with knitting. Or anything along those lines. And let's not forget the beiggest problem child, DH. At least he appears to understand why I bead and supports it (vs. a woman I know who's soon to be ex DH HIDES her beads because she spends more time with beads then him) but mine still gets a little bent when he thinks I'm spending too much time "alone" (not out with everyone basically doing nothing except everything ie: cooking, cleaning, etc) And here I go again, writing entirely too much. Sorry. Once I get started, it's hard to stop.

Take Care EVERYONE,

Helen C

. Now she just has to convince the "job

Reply to
Helen C

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:13:10 -0400, Kaytee wrote (in message ):

Still, and despite the problems he's had getting

I think that this will end up being the solution to your problem. The real world will never put up with the baloney your son is dishing out. He'll find that out the first time he tries to change the terms on his "unreasonable" lease.

I'd bet that home will look a lot nicer after that. It will be up to you whether to take him back, and under what conditions.

I have no idea how to stop someone bigger and stronger than I am, except for force of will. My brother is a great big guy, and he always quaked in his sneakers when Mom was angry. I have never had a kid refuse to listen to me, and I'm only 5'1" (I lie a lot and say I'm 5'3", but I was recently called on that). I can't even imagine a kid ignoring my requests in my own house, but that might be a cultural thing. (I come from a long line of tough and tiny women) I wish I had something for you that could help.

Kathy N-V

Reply to
Kathy N-V

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Kathy N-V :

]My brother is a great big guy, and he always quaked in his ]sneakers when Mom was angry. I have never had a kid refuse to listen to me, ]and I'm only 5'1"

same with my mom. she's barely 5' tall; my brothers are all over 6'. have been since they were teens. my mom said something to my brother one time, and he said, "you'd have to catch me first." she replied, "I don't have to catch you. I can make YOU come to ME." end of discussion.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

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's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

Reply to
vj

Sorry life is as complex as it is for you ... and glad that beads provide temporary refuge sometimes. I wish you had more of a substantive local support system. People to hang with, and give you a break.

Deirdre

Reply to
Deirdre S.

Can't really complain too much. Most of what I do here is venting. And I will give DH credit. When I am seriously stressed and he's able to arrange it, he'll get someone to come over so I can take an extended break. Then it's just up to me on whether or not to relax or socialize. Usually relaxing wins out. So, I guess most of the people that come over think I'm anti-social (I've even been called lazy - AS IF!) but by the time I reach that point, I really don't give a flying fig! And by this time, the living rooms knee deep in toys, dishes are piled up and in general the house is trashed. And then I re-group and do it all over again. Hopefully the "sitter" has cleaned up a little bit but even if not, it's not the chore it was before I recharged (if that makes any sense) Now, if I could just figure out why I WANT to clean on major holidays and celebrations and channel that to every day I'd be doing good (days mom's should take off like mother's day or the like)

Later,

Helen C

Reply to
Helen C

{{{{{{{{{Helen}}}}}}}}}

I feel tired and depressed just contemplating this endless cycle. I wish I knew a way out of it for you.

Fewer burdens, or more help, or both. That's the only way out I can imagine...

Deirdre

Reply to
Deirdre S.

What don't kill you makes you stronger.

It's a "character" building experience. (I have enough character, thank you very much)

& last but not least

You're never given more than you can deal with.

Feeling pretty good today. Someone showed up so I was able to take a shower!!! (either that or wait for DH to get up who knows when) Feel almost human! 4 year old starts headstart tomorrow! (that's gonna be sooo much fun. She's not exactly a morning person) So, she'll be in morning school and Ron (you've all heard about him!) is in afternoon kindergarten while TJ is in all day first grade. Slowly but surely they're getting out of the house (can you tell I'm not one of those clingy mothers? other than keeping them inside so they don't get mowed down by passing motorists) Hey, it could always be worse. Kids are all disgustingly healthy (like me), happy (even though I can't for the life of me figure out why), well fed (momma taught this girl how to cook!), enough of everything we need (even though that want-list is a mile long) and all the other basics. Now, if we could just get those damned Clorox commercials off the TV....!!!!! (Momma's got the magick, my eye!) (these women obviously DO NOT have hobbies )

Later,

Helen C

Reply to
Helen C

That's why I bead. And attempt to keep track of here. And a bunch of another inane time-wasting things that I can step away from them without it all falling apart.

Later,

Helen C

Reply to
Helen C

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger". My Nazi uncle used to say that. After 5 years as a POW, then 5 years at Nueremburg before exoneration. BULLSHIT! He came out with horriffic PTSD which damage the whole family. Martial artists I know ruin their knees by 45 andlive with damaged knees for another 40 year. Or live with the damage of high level freestyle fighting.

Burning yourself up emotionally can tip you over the edge into Depression, and recurring Depression.

And when someone says "you are never given more than you can handle", I would point out that one way of handling, is to say "NO".

Tina

Reply to
Christina Peterson

Sure they do-- vacuuming, dusting, washing, ironing.... Fun stuff.... Valium supposedly helps.....

Switch to video tapes and PBS-type channels....

Kaytee "Simplexities" on

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Reply to
Kaytee

I just put the saying's up there. Did I EVER say I actually believed them? Just dumb things that are SUPPOSED to make your life easier. Like that early to bed, early to rise BS! Glad for all your feedback though. Seems I hit a nerve! If you all knew the sense of humor I have, you'd also realize the amount of sarcasm that was there. It's so hard to put that into writing. I'm glad you took the time to comment because it'll hopefully help someone else. Honest, I'm not as naive as I probably come across as (well.... in some areas, I will admit to a little) Remember the trampoline? I was just "thinking" about it. Never actually did it. Kinda like a lot of things that someone KNOWS is wrong for them but it doesn't hurt to imagine it.

So, any other "sayings" that are dead wrong?

Later,

Helen C

Reply to
Helen C

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Helen C" :

]If you all knew the sense of humor I have, you'd also realize ]the amount of sarcasm that was there. It's so hard to put that into ]writing. I'm glad you took the time to comment because it'll hopefully help ]someone else. Honest, I'm not as naive as I probably come across as

good to hear, Helen!

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

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's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

Reply to
vj

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