Came vs Foil

I've been reading about, but never done stained glass. One question I've had is when do you use came and when foil? What's the criteria that you use to choose which?

Reply to
Walrus
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Reply to
Bryan

lead is frequently heavier. there's a lot more lead in it when using thick pieces of lead rather than solder.

it's about a wash on time, since you don't have to putty foiled panels.

it's the same as tastes great, less filling. you use the technique that will provide the look you are going for, or what tradition states, if you're making panels of a certain tradition.

there are very few large panels of foiled glass. there are lots of examples of leaded large panels.

regards, charlie cave creek, az

Reply to
Charlie Spitzer

You can get the same amont of detail in a leaded window as a foiled one. Just look at the works of LaFarge and Tiffany and others.

Reply to
vic

What's the history of lead vs. foil ? My impression was always that lead cames were old and copper foil was "modern". Is this accurate ? When did foil come into use ? Did Tiffany always use lead ? What about Lloyd Wright ?

-- Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Reply to
Andy Dingley

Unfortunately for your example, Tiffany virtually invented foiled stained glass and much of his work is foiled.

-- Mike Firth Hot Glass Bits Furnace Working Website

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Once again, Empty Bowls for the North Texas food banks will collect moneyin February by charging for donated food and bowls at artsy events in Dallas& Fort Worth. Check out your area if not near here, Empty Bowls wasoriginally and still is mostly a pottery project. All it takes is a boxstuffed with newspaper and one bowl a week to collect a dozen by then.$23,000 raised last year."vic" wrote in messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com...> You can get the same amont of detail in a leaded window as a foiled> one. Just look at the works of LaFarge and Tiffany and others.

Reply to
Mike Firth

for an organic subject mater such as flowers, trees and plants, where the lead line varies in width, and makes sharp curves, for small pieces of glass, I like foil. Its also great for lamps.

For bone strait lines, for smooth curves, for line width that doesn't vary, for non organic subject mater, for larger glass pieces, I like lead best.

This window uses both. Lead for straight lines, and copper for the roses.

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Liam

Reply to
Liam Striker

Tiffany started using copper foil in their lamps and by 1900 foil used used in windows. BUT, Tiffany still used lead came in windows till the studio closed. You can find lead windows, copper foil windows and a conbination of both. Wright used came in the windows. Lead,zinc and copper were used.

Reply to
vic

And perhaps it would be worth pointing out that for Tiffany, the lead was not just a tool to keep the pieces of glass together. Rather, it was PART of the design, so "he" made his own, custom formed came. It became tree-trunks, vines, etc, decorated with the glowing gems of glass the company produced and used.

Again, while not, perhaps, as sculptural as Tiffany, still with an eye for the "look" he was trying to create.

It is harder to think of came as a design element today, because of the very limited choices available. It pretty much has atrophied to nothing more than a way to keep the glass together - which foil does quite well too. Regards Dave Mundt

Reply to
Dave Mundt

True but you can also use different sizes of lead and achieve the same results. I have used 1/8" lead and 1/2" lead in the same work and a combinations of others sizes.

Andy

Reply to
Andy T.

There are 100's of came sizes and profiles available. You need to go direct to the manufactures, though. Also for a few $100 you can have a die made by a lead company to almost any size and shape you want. "

Reply to
vic

Thanks for the info! I must say that while I do some stained glass, I really don't do enough of it to have researched the field extensively. It would be great if you could post some URLS or other pointers to good sources for MORE came patterns, though. thanks Dave Mundt

Reply to
Dave Mundt

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Reply to
vic

OK, so Tiffany invented foil. I do not know if that is strictly true, but he supposedly did so for his lamps. As far as I know, he did not use foil in his large architectural panels. Sometimes when one looks at the detail work in his big windows, one is inclined to think it must be foil. However, there are incredibly thin cames available, and I have heard from restorers that lead is what was used the vast majority of the time.

So, what's the point? Does it matter? In short, yes it matters a lot. I am going to assume that Tiffany was smart as well as artistically talented. He would have known that for large windows-- subjected to wind rain and sun-- came is the only durable material to use. It allows for putty to waterproof it, and it has the ability to expand & contract with heat so as to not break the glass.

For modern windows, in installations that are almost always paired with protective glazing, the decision to go lead or foil now has more to do with the expansion/contraction as well as appropriate design issues. Lead is still far superior to foil for large windows where the glass needs the cushion, or elbow-room. Just as important, though, came gives you the scale needed for the work. One of the biggest mistakes beginners make in stained glass is not using the inherent design quality of the matrix (NOT the movie, the lead which supports the glass!). Windows are not lamp shades. They are almost always viewed from a distance; sometimes a GREAT distance. If you do not up the size of your matrix, the linework disappears from halation and your design looks skeletal. Lead came, with the large selection of profiles, sometimes up to 1-1/2" wide, allows the artist to use the linear nature of his/her designs to be as important as the glass selected. Good stained glass window designs need the lead to be an equal partner, not just the thing that holds it together. When you work big, foil is no longer practical because it takes too long to get the same thing lead does.

Soapbox: Use foil for lamps, small detailed windows. Use lead came for windows meant to be viewed from a distance, and for work you want to last generations.

--Cactus Bob

Reply to
Utah444

Tiffany, LaFarge and others who made plated windows (foil or lead) most of the time sold outside (protection) glazing along with their stained glass windows. So these windows were protected from wind and rain.

Reply to
vic

I guess that means that Tiffany was smart as well as talented .

I wonder though how successful he was in selling the protective glazing. I know that the church windows of his I have seen in my town did not have protective glazing put in them until much later. Most of that was plexi, which now has scratched and yellowed with time. I bet that a lot of churches rejected the extra cost for protective glazing when Tiffany offered it. I suspect that churches really only became concerned with protective glazing when air conditioning came along and folks wanted to control the interior environment. I also recall a big boon on after-the-fact protective glazing following the energy crisis in the 70's.

In my career, which began in the 80's, there has always been exterior glazing; not for my benefit, but for their energy bills. I take advantage of that, but I don't kid myself about the client's motivation. I do let them know why it helps me too.

-Cactus Bob

Reply to
Cactus Bob

There have been many surveys that have should little to no energy savings with outside glazing in older churches. The buildings themselves are to inefficient for the pro glazing to do much. As for Tiff and others the outside glazing was to keep the weather off the plating. I restored a LaFarge window 13'x18' installed in 1887. The church had a $250.00 bill for the outside glazing that was installed by Thomas Wright.Wright was the owner on The New York Decorating Company, they made all of LaFarges windows from 1886 till his death in 1910. They actually made one a year after he died.

Reply to
vic

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