Door Insert Strength

Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside. As this involves grandkids running in and out with the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be needed for this kind of use?

My thinking at present is to use copper foil with copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for all your ideas and warnings!

-- Hal Keeney (dba) Eugene's Studio Stained Glass Artistry

Reply to
Harold E. Keeney (Hal)
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if you triple glaze it, you insulate,slam protect, weather protect, and allow potential movement/ re-installation of the piece in future. Every thing you plan sounds sound(echo not withstanding) m

Reply to
Michele Blank

Hi -

I do a lot of installations like the one you have described.

"Sandwiching" the art glass between clear panes (i.e., tempered 1/8 inch) has created condensation problems here in Florida, where inside and outside temps are sometimes 30 degrees or more apart, and where outside temp is subject to drop significantly and quickly during our infamous afternoon showers. This is true even if the layers are left free to "breathe" by not sealing around the edges.

I have seen best results with just a single layer of clear glass, almost always facing the outside. This provides plenty of support, protection from elements and vandals, and no condensation problems. For extra security, you can go to 1/4 inch tempered.

Just my .02...

Steve Roberts

Reply to
Steve Roberts

if you use weep holes properly, condensation should not be a problem, no matter the temp. m

Reply to
Michele Blank

Thanks for the reply, Michele. Never heard the term "triple glazed". Could you explain it to me? I think I know what you said, but am not sure that what you said is the same thing that I think it is. Hal

Reply to
Harold E. Keeney (Hal)

it's just a fancy term for sandwiching the panel inside 2 sheets of tempered glass. works well for doors that get a lot of action, slamming, etc. to prevent bulging down the road (without having to use ugly re-bar criss-crossing on one side). I do re-inforce heavily inside my lines with strongline to add strength. m

Reply to
Michele Blank

Having just gone through some of the same gyrations with a customer who wouldn't listen to the voice of experience and reason, I'd like to pop in with a few words of advice.

DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!

Here's why:

I'm assuming from your initial post that the door already has an opening that is 21x35, and that the current window is installed with some trim stops that are nailed into the opening on one side (usually on the interior). The existing glass is probably sealed into the door inside a milled ledge (a rabbett) with some sealant (silicone). The major problem you will run into is that the thickness of the door will likely not be enough to be adding additional layers of glass. Usually the rabbett and stop are milled to accept a particular type of glass panel. Adding additional thicknesses of glass or a SG panel will prevent you reinstalling the trim stops. Unless you are willing to undertake some major millwork operations, this can call a halt to the project in it's early stages.

If there's room to put an insert in the door that is about 3/4 to 7/8" thick, then I'd suggest you put an insulated panel in. The 21 x35" opening will be the outside dimensions of the whole unit. The insulated panel has 3 layers, 2 sheets of tempered with the SG panel in the middle. You will have to have the IG unit built, (unless you have a squiggle machine and a tempering unit). The process is done with heat and pressure. The sealant (squiggle) is sort of a black "U" shaped channel of a rubbery looking stuff. They put the edge of your SG panel into the squiggle's "U", and sandwich the two tempered pieces and put it into the press. Your SG panel needs to be about 20.25"x 34.25", as the squiggle is about 5/16 to 3/8" thick, and the panel will "grow" if you make the SG to the finished size. You need to reduce the final size of the art glass by 3/8" all the way around.

The best price I have been able to find here in Atlanta for someone to squiggle a SG panel, with them supplying the tempered glass, is about $27 per sq ft. The other issue is that a 6 sq ft IG window with SG in it is going to be really heavy and the door may not have enough strength to hold it in place if the kids are going to be slamming it...especially if you have to narrow the trim stops down to accomodate the added thickness of the new panel..

An IG unit requires 2 sheets of tempered. You can't seal one sheet to the SG without causing condensation. You can install the SG with one sheet of tempered just "in" the opening, without sealing it and "maybe" avoid the condensation problem.

This is not a project for the faint of heart....I will NEVER do one of these again.

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Reply to
Moonraker

i have never encountered that particular problem as most of the doors in these parts are a good inch thick or more. Making new stops for these doesn't require too much labor . m

Reply to
Michele Blank

Probably not if the door is white pine and the opening is rectangular. It becomes a lot more involved if the door is Mahogany and the opening is oval, like the one I've been dealing with.

It's a given that the center of the door will be about an inch thick, or more. And when the exterior stop is 1/2" and the interior stop is also

1/2", it doesn't leave much room for glass. ;>)
Reply to
Moonraker

Interior doors are commonly 1-3/8" thick. Exterior doors of quality are usually 1-3/4" although older doors may be thinner. Getting oval stop should be more of a problem than fitting it in.

Reply to
Mike Firth

The measurements you refer to are correct, IF you are talking about a slab door. Typically, an exterior wood door is a "raised panel" design, and the center panels measure more like 1 1/4 to 1 3/8 thick at the area where the glass insert goes. That's because they mill an ogee around the opening, opposite the rabbett. That leaves about 1/2" thickness just outside the rabbett, and another 1/2" thickness of the stop, and you will have 1/4 to

3/8" left for glass.

Next time you do an on-site repair and pull the panel out of the door...feel free to measure. I've gone through this exercise probably 25-30 times already this year with customers who want to add safety glazing to a leaded glass panel. Most of the time, there will be enough room to fit a sheet of DSB tempered in...on ONE side. That's 1/8". If you can figure out a way to deepen the rabbett in a door to accomodate two sheets of DSB and/or an IG unit, I'm all ears.

I had to have some custom Mahogany stop made the other day. Cost me $70 for one set, the shape was an exact half circle, with a 42" diameter. I had to get two sets of stop for a pair of doors for one of the ATlanta Falcons, poor SOB has to live in a $8MM ghetto on the golf course where the BellSouth PGA event is held. The house is about 2 years old, and the doors looked like they had been used for tackling practice.

Reply to
Moonraker

Hmmm...what about insisting on fitting the door with a pneumatic closer on top of your other precautions.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

Reply to
Edward Hennessey

Thank you so much for all the great information concerning my problem! The experts have come through again! Am taking all your suggestions to the customer before proceeding further.

The possibilities have grown since my first post. Seems a builder in the shore area wants to install at least one window or door panel of stained glass in each new house he builds. Already have a local builder doing the same thing with the octagonal windows for guest bathrooms. My hobby has gone berserk. Now its a part-time business, and I no longer feel retired!

Have a great Holiday!

-- Hal Keeney (dba) Eugene's Studio Stained Glass Artistry

Reply to
Harold E. Keeney (Hal)

just don't set your prices too low!!!!!! m

Reply to
Michele Blank

Michele, you sound just like my wife. She threatened to make me get a real job (one with a paycheck) if I insisted on setting my prices too low.

Reply to
nJb

This art was never meant for the middle class.

Reply to
Javahut

I seem to remember a thread on here a while ago giving a guideline for making panels. There were different price ranges per square foot, depending on many factors. Use of came versus copperfoil, complexity of the design, origional design or someone elses, type of glass, Etc. Can someone define the different ranges of complexity. For instance in pieces per sqaure foot or what ever the criteria is. I have been doing my work using the copperfoil method and my largest,so far, is 60 inches by 27 inches. (2 door panels 14 inches wide)

Daymon Baker

Reply to
D& M B

Oh, man. There are more formulae to figger pricing than lefties wanting to be POTUS.

One of your immediate problems is mathematics, Daymon. Your two door panels that are 14" wide add up to more than 27", at least here in the US. You Canuks doing everthin' in them metrical measurements may have figgered out sumpthin new?

There's an old story about a fellow who was pricing some SG work.

He was watching the customer's eyes carefully for any sign of resistance to the price.

"Those will be $80.00"

(no reaction)

"Per square foot"

(no reaction)

"Each"

(no reaction)

"Plus labor"

(no reaction)

"Plus $xxx.00 for materials"

(no reaction)

"Plus installation"

(no reaction)

"And $xxx.00 for design fee"

(no reaction)

"Plus $xx.00 per piece in the design"

(no reaction)

"And 50% additional for overhead"

(Big reaction....)

So he stopped. The point is, that guy knew how to "add on" until he got to what that particular market would bear.

Reply to
Moonraker

vj found this in rec.crafts.glass, from "Moonraker" :

]The point is, that guy knew how to "add on" until he got ]to what that particular market would bear.

priceless!

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

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's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

Reply to
vj

If you think about it, the add-on sale technique works almost everywhere.

"You want fries with that?"

Next time you go to buy a car, watch what the "add on's" are. Floor mats, paint sealant, warranties...blink early and blink often.

As JavaHut put it earlier, this is not a middle class art. Those who try to see how cheaply they can do something not only leave money on the table for themselves, they hurt the rest of the SG industry by cutting the prices.

"We have no quarrel with those who sell for less. They know what their product is worth." Totally appropriate for those who go take a SG class and immediately hang out their shingle. Which reminds me:

A year or so ago, I stopped in one of the local retailers for some supplies and to chat a bit. I have a big 'ol red Dodge cargo van with my logo and "Stained Glass Repair" lettered on it. I had parked right in front of the retailer's classroom window, and there was this guy working on his very first lead came project. He saw my van and my logo'ed shirt. Wanted to know how my business was. I told him I get by pretty well. Guess what? He wanted to know if I'd teach him how to do repairs, because he "always wanted to get into the SG business." Ummm huh. I already have one competitor who screws up more than he fixes, whaddya suppose I need another goofball for? Especially one whose only entre into the business would be low-balling prices.

Reply to
Moonraker

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