Help Needed . . . Knitting

Ok. I'm lost. I've been practising with scrap yarn, but I can't get the hang of this, and I don't want to drive 70 miles round trip for a lesson.

I want to make a shawl. I have the yarn and the pattern. Tonight I'll ball up the huge hank of wool/silk. I've hunted all over the web, but still can't get a handle on what I need to do. All I wanted was a pretty lace pattern. What I got is difficulties. :-)

Directions:

Row 1 & 2: Knit 4, yo, knit to last 2 stitches, turn and knit 2, then place marker, knit to end.

Question: Are those 2 stitches I didn't knit just left that way?

Question: Is the turning and knitting to the end part of Row 1; or after the turn, is that counted as Row 2?

I'm lost.

Reply to
Dianne Lewandowski
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Keep using the scrap yarn until all becomes clear.

IMHO, without having actually seen the pattern, yes. Read the entire pattern through. It sounds like a short row technique. Short rows are like inserts of rows that make one side longer than the other, and are used for shaping. Eventually you will knit an entire row, I expect.

You are also gaining a stitch with row 1 that will result in a hole in the fabric 4 stitches in from the beginning. Is the shawl a triangle or rectangle? Where does your pattern start? In one corner of a rectangle?

Yes

You're thinking too much. (repeat slowly after me) Trust ... the ... pattern ... Dianne

Note: patterns are sometimes wrong. But try working it through first, do a few more rows and see what happens. Dora

Reply to
bungadora

I am. So far, I think I understand, but I'm guessing at this point.

Yes, it is.

Short rows are

I'm making pie shapes (wedges), and from what I can gather thus far, I'll never knit an entire row. I begin binding off at row 10.

It's a half circle.

Directions: Row 1 & 2: Knit 4, yo, knit to last 2 stitches, turn and knit 2, then place marker, knit to end.

Yes to what/which? After the turn, count as Row 2? Or is the turning and knitting to the end still Row 1. I think the latter. But you know what happens when idiots think. :-)

This isn't what I really wanted to make, but the shop owner raved about it. I just wanted to knit a lace shawl. I started to knit one from a

1910 pattern, but didn't like it after about 6 inches was finished. Too dated looking. I think I'll look up and see if I have the "Piecework" pattern for Russian shawls. But I really hate to give up on this. Hate when I don't get things and can't figure them out. Thanks much for trying to unravel this for me.

Dianne

Reply to
Dianne Lewandowski

We all learned the hard way that it's not always wise to read too far ahead.

I think Dora is right and eventually you will be treating it as though it's all one row. In this case it sounds like you will probably be binding off the two stitches at each end as though it was one row.

Keep practicing and you'll soon be doing things like this without a thought.

Lucille

Reply to
Lucille

This is how I'd translate it if I were trying to figure out the pattern...

Row 1: Knit 4, yarn-over, knit to last 2 stitches (leave these 2 sts on left needle) TURN Row 2: Knit 2, place marker, knit all the stitches

Although I can't for the life of me figure out how that's going to make a lacy shawl -- a shawl yes, lacy no.

Here are some free knitting pattern websites that I use (I make a guage swatch & try to pick a pattern that uses a yarn similar in size to mine (thickness & heft of yarn))...

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-- they have quite a few free patterns
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-- they also have quite a few free patterns
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-- thiswouldn't be a pattern for the shawl but for the lace (does that make sense?it's kinda like these are patterns for the stitch, not for the overallcross-stitch 'pictorial')
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that these help...I have a great book with lots of patterns (it's the Reader's Digest ofNeedlework) -- sometimes I just get creative and "wing it"...Susan

Reply to
JiminyCricket

Do you just continue repeating these two rows, or are there other rows between this and row 10 that you haven't told us about?

triangle or

rectangle?

That makes sense. I was thinking that if it were a rectangular shawl you would be starting from one corner and working outwards until you hit the other short end of the rectangle.

turning

Well, you could do it either way. I had this problem making bunny ears last Xmas. It looked better with row 1 as row 1 turning and counting the turn as row 2. But one cannot account for some pattern writers. Is this a Debbie Bliss pattern by any chance?

If you count as a row 1 turn row 1 row 2 turn row two you have 4 rows at one end and 1 row at the other. If you count it as row 1 turn row 1 you have two rows.

Your pattern gives you 10 rows in total, right? How wide is your triangle supposed to be at the wide end? What is your gauge over the pattern? In other words, approximately how many rows should you have at the wide end when you finished the pie shape? Of course this depends on what you are doing from rows 3-10.

Does this make sense?

Dora

Reply to
bungadora

Not that Dianne will ever take my advice, but.....

Leaving the last two stitches on the needle, and knitting back across is probably about shaping. I've found many patterns over the years that use tricks like this to produce either a border or a round or triangle shaping.

Caryn

Reply to
crzy4xst

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:18:11 -0500, "Lucille" spewed forth :

Begging your pardon, but how does NOT reading the directions and NOT understanding them thoroughly at the outset help you produce a finished product? I'm sure you wouldn't make dinner using a new recipe without reading the entire thing - why should you make a knitted item without understanding the directions first?

But, but...you're advocating NOT READING THE PATTERN prior to starting, she HAS to think about it as she goes along, no?

I'm really truly not trying to be snarky - but can you see my point WRT reading ahead and understanding the directions before you proceed? Sometimes you just have to trust the pattern to work (turning a sock heel for the first time is a good example) but in the vast majority of instances it will behoove you as a knitter to read the pattern in its entirety and to understand it all before you cast on.

I will also note here that sometimes in the quest to compress a pattern, an editor or publisher will make complete hash of the original designer's instructions, rendering them incomprehensible to even accomplished knitters.

Wooly Who won't start unless the pattern makes sense

Reply to
Wooly

Sorry, but I must disagree with you this time. I have been knitting for many years and this is the method that works for me. I have discovered that when you're doing more advanced, complicated patterns, reading ahead and trying to understand the directions is often a lesson in futility. It sounds wrong and impossible but if you do what's asked, step by step, it suddenly comes together and my reaction is usually, WOW I never thought that was going to come out right.

I have found mistakes in patterns over the years, and I have written some patterns over the years, and this is the way it works for me.

Personally I think some things need to be done in little baby steps and not long leaps ahead.

Having said that I will say that if you can read ahead and visualize what something is going to look like from the written directions than that is

100% right for you. I have often said, there are no hard and fast rules and whatever works for you is the correct way.

Lucille

.

Reply to
Lucille

I appreciate all the helpful advice and the links. I'm doing a small mock-up. It's making a bit more sense. I think the directions are awful. If they want newbies to learn, they need to lay things out a bit better. :-)

I realize, now, that short rows have to do with shaping. But the remark about it not being lacy is also my "sigh". I had seen a lacy pattern I wanted, but the shop owner said it would be too difficult with shaping.

I'm still going to hunt for that "Piecework" article on knitted shawls. First I have to finish up balling 1200 yards. :-)

This is such a great place to ask a question. I think I'm on my way, now. I appreciate all who joined in to help.

Dianne

Reply to
Dianne Lewandowski

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 09:20:04 -0500, "Lucille" spewed forth :

But isn't it a disservice, especially to new knitters, to counsel them to not make the effort?

I teach children to knit quite frequently and find that if they understand what it is they're trying to accomplish and why they tend to be more confident in their knitting. I do start them with "pithy English" directions and gradually move them along to standard abbreviated knit-speak. One little gal is designing her own sweaters after only six months with the needles and doing a better job of it than a lot of paid designers I could name.

Sometimes it is. I blame this on the folks who are tasked with making the instructions fit into the smallest space possible for this problem. Well-written instructions shouldn't be confusing no matter the complexity of the pattern.

My exact state of mind after I turned my first sock heel - and one of the few times I gave up and decided I had to just do what the pattern said and trust it to come out.

So have I, and so have I. Some mistakes leap off the page during my initial read-through of the pattern, others don't rear their ugly heads until I'm well into the project.

If you're talking about excercise I won't argue. But sometimes jumping in feet first is the best way to get a handle on a project. I find it somewhat offensive that most of the mainstream knitting magazines take it upon themselves to tell knitters a pattern is for "experienced" knitters merely because the pattern includes a chart or a cable or whatever. My first knitting project was an Aran sweater. Nobody told me it was too complicated and that I should work my way up to it. The sweater contained a lot of mistakes but I learned a lot along the way.

I'll amend that to suggest that if the pattern doesn't include a photo of the finished item for your scrutiny you might want to keep browsing for one that does, especially if you're the sort of knitter who can't envision what the FO should look like. Nothing worse than discovering halfway into a project that the written word and the knitted reality don't agree with each other.

Indeed.

Reply to
Wooly

So we're basically agreeing here----

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, it would be a disservice to new knitters to tell them to plunge in without reading it through but few inexperienced knitters are going to plunge right in and try something with short rows and unclear directions. For a less complicated project it makes sense to read ahead and try to see where you're going and certainly you would want to have a picture of the finished object so you could compare your item to the finished one.

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I doubt you're teaching the kids to knit using designer patterns. If you are, you're a lot better at teaching than I ever was. I always felt you need to crawl before you walk and started kids off with scarfs, or easier sweaters and on the happy occasion that I found a natural, like the kid whose doing her own designing, I tried to do something more interesting for that one kid. For the others, they were happy with their simple projects and were thrilled to be able to finish something they could use.

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----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're absolutely right, but in the real world it isn't often done that way. Right now I'm doing a square from the Great American Afghan Book that has a mistake in it. I am experienced and I fixed the problem, and just in case anyone wants to borrow this from me I changed it on the page, but there is no way I would try to teach someone with little experience to do this particular square. It is, and should be marked expert and unless you're very confident in your ability, or have somewhere to go for help, it would be a disservice to newbies not to mark it so.

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----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sometimes, like in my example above, it just won't come out right. Then if you're lucky you can ask someone for help and figure out if you're wrong or the pattern is wrong.>

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My first knitting project was a brown and pink striped a-line skirt for a doll that I made when I had the measles and was stuck in bed for 2 weeks. With my mother's help it came out good and I was hooked on knitting forever after. Just so you know I'm speaking from experience, that was 60 years ago. That doesn't mean my way is the only right way, but at least you can understand that there aren't a lot of mistakes I haven't made at one time or another and that I'm comfortable with ripping and starting over..

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Reply to
Lucille

directions.

I'd say that in Dianne's case it would be difficult to say absolutely whether the pattern meant row 1 turn row 1, or row 1 turn row 2, without looking at what else is going on in the pattern. She was getting hung up on that one instruction, so it made sense to me to tell her to let go and just follow the pattern to work her way through it. People learn in different ways. Some people learn from just being told. Other people cannot visualize what a pattern is telling them without having worked through a similar problem encountered in the past. The tactile experience is necessary in order for them to mentally visualize and to problem-solve effectively.

So I would tend to agree with you. One should try to get an overall picture of what is going on in the pattern by reading it through. But it is going to be difficult for a beginner to do this and to feel anything but overwhelmed. Overwhelmed is not good. It freezes up the fingers.

At any rate, it looks like Dianne has gone forth to find another pattern, although IME Piecework patterns frequently have errors, so it might be a case of from the frying pan into the fire. If nothing else perhaps she learnt to do what she wanted, and not what the LYS lady thought was cool.

Although ... HEY DIANNE YOU'RE A QUITTER.

There. That ought to get her going. (grin) Dora

Reply to
bungadora

I sincerely hope you're not comparing Dianne to most other people. Someone with her kind of talent and dedication to anything involving a needle is sure as hell not the "norm."

Dianne, you have my deep admiration for never being afraid to plunge right in, but not too many people are that gutsy. Please understand that I mean that in the nicest way. I think of you as fearless and to me that's good.

Keep on attempting the difficult and on the rare occasion that you fail, tell us about it so we can commiserate with you and tell you about our disasters. I suspect most of us have had a few.

Lucille

Reply to
Lucille

And I did, and I figured it out. But it would have been more sensible to have marked it Row 1 to the turn and Row 2 after the turn. Having never worked a "short row" before, I had no clue. I even asked the shop owner and she said not to worry about it, just do it. Well, I needed a bit more understanding.

Once I understood that even-numbered rows were after the turn, I went sailing.

Nope. I figured out the pattern and balled up the rest of the 1200 yards and will start on this crazy semi-circle tonight.

I decided against another pattern because this is variegated yarn and will probably look better without lace patterning.

Like another poster (Wooly), I dove in with fair isle for my first knitting experience. An Aran sweater next. I didn't find either one of them difficult. The directions were clear and concise. I bought a little Coats & Clark book to learn how to cast on and repair for missed stitches, and I gradually learned how to fix other types of errors. I never would have started knitting had I been shown a scarf for my first project. :-)

I really think a lot of directions are very poorly written these days. And they want a pretty penny for them, too.

I also think it's wonderful that you can ask a question here and get loads of answers. :-) What a great group.

Thanks to all who offered their help! I got it. :-) Dianne

Reply to
Dianne Lewandowski

absolutely

sensible

Good.

I was just yanking your chain. Or giving you a kick in the butt, but it probably wasn't necessary by that point. My apologies if you took me seriously and found my comment hurtful. I know you're not a quitter but last I heard you were going off to leaf through your Pieceworks.

Hey! some people like scarves. Most people are very slow knitters at first and speed up with practise. It's encouraging to be able to finish the first project. But you are an experienced craftsperson and have the experience of having it take time to finish things. Which is another aspect of the learning mindset in handcrafts, I think. There are a lot of people who have never made anything, ever, and it would be a mistake to talk them into doing a fair isle. Some of them don't want to do anything they can't finish watching Survivor reruns over the weekend.

One never learns anything doing only what one already knows though.

Dora Who is going back to sewing yarn ends into her fair isle sweater.

Reply to
bungadora

I knew that. Didn't take offense at all. Had a good laugh over it. I don't know why, when I type up these messages, everybody assumes on deadpan serious. :-)

I realize some people simply can't (or won't) do anything beyond a beginner scarf, beret, etc. It depends upon their personality and their background. But I really had no special "skills" nor experience. I just dove in feet first. I wanted to do it bad enough that I suffered through the errors. I also know, from teaching, that for some people that's just waaay too much effort. :-)

Dianne

Reply to
Dianne Lewandowski

Dianne Lewandowski wrote: these messages, everybody assumes on

It's a common situation. Otherwise Usenet would be flame-free.

suffered

For each their own. Some people start with simple things and grow, some keep making simple things. However, simple things can be very useful.

I wouldn't agree you have no special skills or experience. Piano requires practise and discipline, and those characteristics are well applied in craft. And you have been doing needlework for years.

Dora

Reply to
bungadora

Then you have those of us who are capable of doing all sort of other things, but prefer scarves. ;) Not because anything else is too much effort, but because scarves lend themselves to the kind of experimentation that I enjoy at the moment. I've been indulging in something I call my ADD scarf. I gather a bunch of yarns in a similar or complimentary colors, but multiple textures. Then I knit for two or three rows and switch yarns and knit for two or three more and switch again. It's quite fun. Of course, it's not helping me get through the two baby sweaters I need to finish or some of the other things I need to do, but that's beside the point. LOL!

Elizabeth

Reply to
Dr. Brat

My mother used to knit kid size sweaters that she donated to Faith Farms out of any and all pieces of yarn that came her way. She made absolutely beautiful little baby sweaters from whatever she had in her basket at the moment. She would take the most unlikely combinations and put them together, sometimes in a diamond or stripe or check and sometimes just the way you're describing your scarf.

The sweaters came out so cute that they asked her if they could sell them and use the money instead of giving them away. They said they were offered such high prices for what the young women called "funky" kids stuff that they could buy sweaters for the needy and still have money left over for whatever else was needed.

As I'm sure you can see she was delighted with the appreciation of her work and with the success of what she just loved doing.

Lucille

Reply to
Lucille

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