Coat vs Shirt

Looks like you need to get hold of a decent book on pattern drafting. Try the Winifred Aldridge one - if you identify it, you could order it from your local library (or just lash out and buy it).

In article snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com>, Jack Schmidling of

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Dear JS,

A coat sleeve is developed from a one-piece jacket sleeve, not a shirt sleeve, which is almost flat across the cap. The two-piece sleeve allows a more fitted sleeve. If you have a one-piece jacket sleeve with a deep cap, rather than the shirt-type sleeve, I can explain to you how to develop a two-part sleeve.

As for the body of the coat, start out this way. Measure down from the hollow in your neck to where you want the coat to open (the break point). It's going to be somewhere about six inches, probably. On your front pattern, find this same point and put a dot. Pea coats have rather broad revers (the part that folds back over, or the lapel). You might need to add to the lapel section to be wide enough. Then from the dot to the point, draw a gentle curve so that you don't end up with an acute point at the point of the lapel.

For the collar, draw a line perpendicular from the neck edge of the shoulder the same length as half of the back neck. Draw another line perpendicular to the end of the first collar line, towards the front. This one should be the stand part (the underneath part attached to the body, usually no more than 1-1/4 inches, but can be wider if you want it) plus the desired width of the fall (the part of the collar past the fold), plus 3/8 inch so that the seam to the body will be covered. Draw another line from the end of this at right angles to wherever it hits on the lapel. The other side of the collar follows the lines of the coat front neck. After this working pattern is complete, cut it out and slash it in several places, and open each place about 1/8 inch on the outside edge only. The other side has to stay the same to fit to the body. Note: the shorter and wider one's neck is, the more slashes are required. Start with about three or four.

I am assuming that you know to disregard seam allowances when drafting. They are added only after the final draft is completed.

Teri

Would this help you?

It's a woman's peacoat. I have the pattern...hang on...

from the envelope back:

This coat features a classic double-breasted front closure. This design includes a rounded collar with collar stand, front and side darts for shaping, lined, rounded patch pockets with flaps, and topstitching detail. Coat may be completely buttoned, or left partially unbuttoned to form a lapel. Coat front may be interfaced, if desired, for added stability. View A is an unlined coat. View B is a lined coat.

---- now, lemme see..... It is a two piece sleeve with the seam ending in the middle of the back part of the armscye. What that should get you (in a coat that fits you well) is mobility and a good fit. I would say what you've fought with on other coats that have a 2 piece sleeve is bad fit.

I think if you want to draft your own peacoat pattern, you might think about looking at suit coat patterns and going from there. It's closer to a suit coat than a shirt. Remember that a jacket is going to have greater ease (ease is where the garment measures out larger than your body measurement on purpose. It allows for "ease" of movement.) than a shirt. I suppose you could get there from a shirt pattern if you allowed more ease, but that can be tricky. If I had to start from square one, I'd start with a double-breasted suit coat pattern and study from there. Key changes are going to be the lapel and front opening.

HTH! Sharon

Over in rec.crafts.textiles.sewing you asked the same question in March:

Did you look at:

Vogue # 7988

out the shaping and substitute patch pockets.

If you want something a little less complicated, KwikSew 2462:

Please excuse this if it shows up twice but my isp is very unreliable posting to usenet and this never showed up in google groups.....

"BEI Design"

Not exactly the same question.

Leave out the shaping and substitute patch pockets.

Actually, I bought this one and have attempted two muslins from it. The first is single brested and the second double. The first was the single brested version and I cut it to my size but it obviously will never be big enough for a heavy winter coat. It's a nice fit for a dinner jacket.

I started on the double brested one and got to the point that generated the questions in this thread. It seems gross overkill just to make a peacoat type coat.

Also, "leave out shaping" may be the key but I don't really know what that all entails.

I looked at that and it seems to be very much like KS2000 from which I made my shirts so I didn't bother buying it.

Botttom line, is I still need a pattern for my winter coat.

js

snipped-for-privacy@mchsi.com

Thanks for the help but I need to sort out coat vs jacket. I didn't know there was any fundamental difference other than possibly the weight. And... for the record my shirt sleeve is definately not flat. It is a sort of Gaussian curve (bell shaped) but with a slightly steeper edge on one side which I believe is the front. I have made 5 shirts so far, changing each one a little till I have a near perfect fit.

First of all, why do I want to use a two part sleeve on a utility type coat?

I will ponder the rest later.

js

Yes, but if you compare this shirt sleeve cap to one from a coat or jacket, you will see that the bell curve of the jacket/coat is MUCH steeper.

Shirts allow movement by being loose fitting: in almost complete contrast, tailored garments in much stiffer fabrics allow movement by following body shape, which is why there is more shaping and far more pieces in a tailored jacket than in a shirt

It fits better and allows more freedom of movement in the heavier fabrics. Many women's coats and jackets are also made with 2 part sleeves.

Take a look at some pattern pieces: the curve of the sleeve of a two parter follows the natural curve of the arm at rest - the elbow is naturally slightly bent. Shirts are usually made of MUCH lighter fabric, where a looser, straight sleeve is no impediment to movement.

Dear JS,

Coat v jacket? The body of a jacket is 1/2 to 1 inch smaller on the sides than a basic coat. The neckline is 1/8 inch smaller than a coat. You must raise the armhole to accommodate shoulder pads, the amount depending upon size of the shoulder pads to be used. The shoulders are extended and deepened by 1/8 inch, and of course the length has to be adjusted. You always start with a basic shape before doing details.

Here's how to take a one-piece jacket sleeve, and turn it into a two-piece. You must have a jacket sleeve, NOT a shirt sleeve to get the correct shape. Measure across the pattern (seam lines, not cut edges--it's easier to remove the seams before starting), at the bicep (underarm), elbow and wrist. Divide each measurement in thirds, and mark dots on the pattern. Draw lines to connect the dots on both sides, and extend the lines at the underarms upwards, keeping the same angles. Now, fold the pattern along the lines you just drew, and trace the underarm section within the center third of the pattern. This is the under sleeve. Don't cut it out yet.

For the upper sleeve, measure out from the center third just completed

2-1/4 inches at the underarm, 2 inches at the elbow, and 1-3/4 inches at the wrist. Draw lines to connect these dots.

Before cutting, measure up on the under sleeve 1-1/2 inches and put a dot. Do the same thing 1-1/2 inches down. This is the area that needs to be eased. Mark the upper sleeve in the same way, only 2 inches in each direction. Trace one of the pieces before you cut, so that you will have separate upper and under sleeve sections. Draw short lines to make into notches; two on the back part of the seam; two in the back cap, one on the front cap. To give even more shape to the sleeve, cut each at the elbow, and open about 1/2 inch along the elbow side, so that the shape is definitely bent at the elbow towards the front. You will be opening one side, while the part closest to the front is still attached. It will look like a dart.

Measure across the undersleeve at the underarm. Then measure the upper sleeve at the underarm. The two pieces should total the original measurement before you started drafting. If they do not, adjust the upper sleeve equally on both sides until it does.

Teri

I have a basic question on size.

If I make a shirt to size 44, it fits very well. A coat obviously has to be larger to accommodate thicker fabrics, linings etc.

If I build a coat from a pattern size 44 will it take all this into consideration or do I need to start with a larger pattern?

The coat I started in 44 does not seem like it will fit by the time I fill and line it.

My plans are to use my not so nice fleece for an inner lining. The good stuff I sent off for machine carding and kept a few pounds for felting. Not sure how to handle the inner... I wet felted a piece about two sq feet and it would work but it's a lot of work. I tried needle felting some and it's a lot easier but really fluffy. Any thoughts on this? Should I padstitch to the outer fabric or the lining or ?

js

You need to understand the difference between your body measurements, wearing ease, and design ease. If your chest measurement is 44", then a shirt which measures exactly that will be skin tight. In order to breathe, you need to add around 2" wearing ease. If you make a jacket with a finished chest measurement of 46" and put it onto a 44" torso, it will fit like a shirt. For it to fir like a jacket, you need at least 4" wearing ease. If the styles you aspire to are more loosely-fitting than that (e.g. to allow for wadding, interlining, garments worn iunderneath) you need to add further design ease.

Again, Jack, you *really* *do* *need* at this point to get hold of a basic book on pattern drafting (via an inter-library loan or your local college perhaps) and read it. Mind you, the way this thread is running, we'll shortly have written one between us. Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying "don't ask" - but i am saying that IMHO you should be motivating yourself to doing some research other than just asking questions here. Do some reading, then ask for clarifications, opinions, etc, that way you'll get on far faster.

In article snipped-for-privacy@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, snipped-for-privacy@schmidling.com of

uttered

In article snipped-for-privacy@ntlworld.com, She who would like to be obeyed once every Preston Guild of no.spam uttered

Here you go - the winifred aldrich menswear book - this should give you some food for thought ;) beware, you may develop a tendency to wards "cerebral sewing" - too many ideas, too little time.

It should fit fine, but do check and buy by measurements, especially if you are buying patterns of different makes!

If you make it according to the instructions for fabric and construction, it *should* fit in theory. HOWEVER, it is always wise to check! With complex patterns you want to make up in expensive fabric, it is wise to make a toile/muslin out of cheap fabric first, to check for these little differences.

If this is thicker than the interlining recommended, you may well have to make a bigger size. Yes, do pad stitch it in place if possible: this will stop it moving about between the outer fashion fabric and the lining.

How about finding a coat that you like the fit at a second hand shop, take it apart to use for the basic pattern pieces? Then modify as needed to make it a pea coat: larger collar, double breasted, etc. Might be the easiest way to do it...

When doing this, you'll also see some of the construction that went in to it.....

HTH

Cappy

> Leave out the shaping and substitute patch pockets.

First of all, last trip to the library neted 5 books on sewing so I haven't been just asking questions. But this is all new to me and there is a lot to absorb. Keep in mind I am starting with a sheep. I built a spinner, learned to use it, built a loom ditto, made some shirts and a coat is just the next step.

I looked at that link and it is in the UK so I will try to find a local source but the title "Metric Pattern Cutting" does not jump out as a book I would even have noticed.

js

Since that pattern is for a *coat* not a *jacket* I'm guessing you used the wrong size (too small). The double breasted version, with minor modifications, would work for me if I were making a Pea Coat. (Larger collar, wider lapels, minimal shaping).

Whatever floats your boat. :-)

The Vogue pattern I provided the link to is for a more *formal* man's overcoat. For a simple shape like a Pea Coat, omit the darts, and alter the seams where there is waist shaping so it's more of a boxy shape. The double breasted view A is very close to what I would use to make a Pea Coat but I'd use the collar and lapels from view C, and make them a bit wider.

Maybe buy an inexpensive ready-made coat that is close to what you want and take it apart to make a pattern? <shrug>

In article snipped-for-privacy@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, snipped-for-privacy@schmidling.com of

uttered

Ah - try looking on Amazon rather than Amazon UK. The David coffin shirt book is apparently an excellent one too - the only men's apparel I make up is shirts done to a particular designer's spec, so I've never drafted one. I can warp a loom, but if I need to keep a sheep or learn to spin I'll know who to pester! ;)

In article <R46dnR035dACd8 snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com, BEI Design of uttered

Off to the charity shop with you! Quick-smart!

In article snipped-for-privacy@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, snipped-for-privacy@schmidling.com of

uttered

Here you go

Aldrich appears to be harder/ slower to obtain than in the UK - a lead time of 1 to 2 months seems ridiculous (they're presumably shipping from here). It's probably be quicker for me to order it here and post it out to you.

However, I did find this:

Have a browse and see what turns up.