As long as Arch is Elsewhere

There are those who believe this, and those at tool companies who worked hard to get them to believe this, but it just ain't so.

I think Richard Raffan is a good example of this. He spent a few years teaching himself to turn. It appears that in addition to just plain technique, he worked hard at improving his efficiency. I have three of his videos and firmly believe he would use his car keys to turn if it helped getting the job done better and faster. His (well not really his) method of back hollowing is an example of going against conventional techniques. In his bowl turning video he uses both a skew and a spindle gouge.

In fact, I'm not sure his videos are the best for beginners. His techniques and abilities are so far beyond most of us that is impossible for the beginner to emulate him. Best to start with sound methods and then advance to what works best for you. You can't learn higher mathematics without understanding arithmetic.

Harry

Harry B. Pye wrote: (clip) You can't learn higher mathematics without understanding arithmetic. ^^^^^^^^^^^ I can remember when the educators thought that you could not learn arithmetic without understanding higher math first. What a disaster.

Your darn right, Ecnerwal.

Seem to recall someone saying "there's another sucker born every day" and those that profit from it will try to keep it that way !!

Have fun and take care Leo Van Der Loo

Ecnerwal wrote:

..........and if "old Richard" did actually use his "car keys" as turning tools, at least two of the big name companies would be offering similar "car keys" in several varieties of stainless steel and powdered metal within a month.............Barry

And I thought a 1/2" round nose was a hollowing tool for several years. Barry

PS Actually, it is a pretty danged good hollowing tool! :-)

There is no doubt that better lathes, better tools, and better techniques can all contribute to more efficient turning. But we should not get caught up in the idea that it is the ONLY way. I spent five years teaching myself all the wrong ways to sharpen and use tools before I discovered that there were instructions available. I still use many of the old methods which seem natural. I have several other turning friends in the area. One turns only on a home made lathe powered by a belt sander. It looks like something out of Fred Sanford's front yard. He owns only a very cheap set of Chinese turning tools. One has an old Sears lathe and uses only a large screwdriver as a turning tool. One has a 'Big Momma' Oneway lathe and probably as much money tied up in turning tools as he does in the lathe. Guess which one of us consistently turns out the shoddiest work. A bunch of years ago, I saw a sign in an automotive repair shop that very aptly captures the essence of workmanship, "A determined man with one rusty wrench can do more work than a slackard with a box full of tools."

Ron Robinson East Texas

======================================== Hi, Sounds like the lesson to learn here is to learn how to use any tools you have available, then if have funds available, you may want to upgrade. Just don't expect to get better results just because you got better tools. They still have to be operated in a competent manner to produce an acceptable end product. I've seen screwdrivers, files, wires, nails, saw blades, and wood chisels (I use a 3/8 wood chisel as a bedan on a regular basis) used for turning tools with great results.

Ken Moon Webberville, TX

I can remember when they were "teachers."

Is it only design that allows

I think that without personal styles of tool use, there would be very little advancement in tool design. Look at a bowl gouge and all the different shapes. Watch how R Raffan uses the skew, and how his is shaped. Open up any turning tool catalog and see all the tool designs that carry someones name. Being self taught, with the aid of a few books and videos I've found that some tools have a lot of different uses. The more I turn, the more uses I find for some.

After watching two turners demonstrate spindle turning at an AAW Symposium, there styles of turning and the tools they used were as different as night and day. Both were accepted as being correct methods of turning. One used gouges,skews and a parting tool. The other used only a parting tool and a small 1/4" scraper.

I discovered that I had been using a 1/8" parting tool in much the same way as one of these turners. Though I never saw it used this way in any of the books or videos. And all the time thinking that I was using it wrong. Personal styles of tool use, yes there's no dought in my mind. By the way one of my favorites is , The Robert Sorby Oval Skew Shear Scrapper. Jim

Is it only design that allows

I think that without personal styles of tool use, there would be very little advancement in tool design. Look at a bowl gouge and all the different shapes. Watch how R Raffan uses the skew, and how his is shaped. Open up any turning tool catalog and see all the tool designs that carry someones name. Being self taught, with the aid of a few books and videos I've found that some tools have a lot of different uses. The more I turn, the more uses I find for some.

After watching two turners demonstrate spindle turning at an AAW Symposium, there styles of turning and the tools they used were as different as night and day. Both were accepted as being correct methods of turning. One used gouges,skews and a parting tool. The other used only a parting tool and a small 1/4" scraper.

I discovered that I had been using a 1/8" parting tool in much the same way as one of these turners. Though I never saw it used this way in any of the books or videos. And all the time thinking that I was using it wrong. Personal styles of tool use, yes there's no dought in my mind. By the way one of my favorites is , The Robert Sorby Oval Skew Shear Scrapper. Jim

I thought to give you fellows a little respite from my posting overload. but I see that my name is part of a thread's subject and that I was asked a question. George, my answer remains my tired old opinion: There are no rules and no always or nevers in woodturning, Don't be a slave to other's insistance for "A better way" . Regards to all, Arch

(Reviewed and cleared for unintended insult misperception.)

Fortiter,

You're not getting away that easy, Arch! Where have you been!?

Hey Leif, To answer your thinly veiled insult, [ G G G G G G G G G G G G & more G's not to mention a plethora of TIC's and excess :)'s ] I got herself's permission to run & play outside, bought a Jet-mini and have been turning happily out on the deck in the Florida sun. I had considered returning to the ng as "ASSUMMA BEN LOONEY" but I'm glad I didn't. Owen would have tracked me down, and I'm already one of his usual suspects. More G's, ;)'s & TIC's, Owen!

Your partner (in crime) Arch

Fortiter,

All,

Not knowing who the new turners are that are reading this thread, I am always a little cautious in these kinds of discussions because even though tools can be used flexibly, there are limits to what they can do safely. To say, for example, that it is OK to use a roughing gouge on a bowl, is dangerous for a new turner who doesn't understand the design limitations of that tool such as how its grind could be dangerous inside a bowl, or how the tang of the tool can be easily snapped if the tool is used too far over the toolrest.. Consequently, I would offer this comment.

A turning tool is designed to present a cutting edge or a scraping edge to the wood in a limited range of orientations, such that the cut/scrape can be accomplished easily, efficiently and safely. Taken at its core, what does this mean? It means that every tool has a "sweet spot" of operation. It also means that many tools can be operated beyond their "normal" range of operation by compromising a little on the ease, efficiency or the safety.

For example, someone mentioned Raffan using a spindle gouge during bowl turning. Two comments on this. First, he uses a "shallow fluted" gouge, not a "spindle" gouge. This is only a naming convention (exact same tool), but his point is that the tools are flexible if used safely. He also refers to a "bowl" gouge as a "deep fluted" gouge. Again, he doesn't allow a naming convention limit the tool's usefulness. Second, when using the shallow fluted tool, he doesn't over-reach the toolrest such that the wood gains more leverage than the turner.

For a beginner, I recommend that they use the tools for the designations as they are named. As you learn about tool design: strengths and weaknesses, you can start to safely relax the operating range limits that are customarily placed on these tools. I also recommend that new turners do not allow their own fugality to prevent them from buying tools to accomplish their goals. If you are too cheap to buy the appropriate tool, your frugality will "force" you out of the customary sweet spots for your tools and potentially into dangerous situations.

On the flip side, my experience is that most people gain this experience through trial and error as well as formal training/education. In other words, the more you know, the cheaper you can be because you are making intelligent decisions in regard to tool usage.

Great discussion!

Joe Fleming - San Diego ===========================

You bring up a point about basic knowledge versus tool knowledge.

Kids always give the "shucks and shuffle" when I begin with the obvious, that you never let the tool get the leverage, or your body get in the line of fire, but it never stopped me (surprise) from reviewing and demanding compliance when I saw incorrect operation.

I think that tools of all sorts are important, but the sort of thing you do with all tools is more so.

If you turn downhill and down grain, and let the wood come to the tool, not force the tool to the wood, you'll be a better turner with the proverbial screwdriver than the guy who suits up to the protective nines, grabs a Texas size whatever, and attacks a rapidly spinning piece of wood.

Oh yeah, if it seems too fast for you - it is.