I guess I'm confused

Hi RP, The roughing gouge is designed for spindles and really shouldn't be used on bowls. The wing tips would catch using a roughing gouge in the same manner you use a bowl gouge, resulting in a nasty catch, possibly breaking the tool. A rouging gouge is formed - notice the shank that goes into the tool handle. A bowl gouge is ground from a bar of steel. Use the 3/8th gouge for your bowls inside and out. I would even suggest buying a 1/2 bowl gouge for heavier roughing work on the outside of bowls. --Jim

You mention that you "needed and will use all the tools", then you go on to admit that you do not know what, or when most of them are used for. You've really got me confused. Sorta like saying, "now that I've got this lovely wagon, but where does this damn horse go". Anyhow, the large roughing gouge is used primarily in spindle work, to quickly rough square stock to round. The bowl gouge, as the name states, is used for turning bowls, both outside and inside. And finally, I'm sure someone, somewhere, has tried a skew on a bowl, I'm just not sure if you'll ever get them to admit to it. One of the problems with being "self taught", is when you learn a bad technique, it's really hard to blame the instructor.

James Barley.

I use a 1" roughing gouge to true up the exterior of a green bowl blank. I have also used it on the inside of bowls befor I learned about bowl gouges, so it can be done.

Anything can be done if you want to do it. But learning to use the proper tools for the job is important rather than learning bad habits and technique. I'm still working on overcoming some of my bad habits, so lets give RP a break and get him started the right way.

The "right" being Jim's?

The roughing gouge provides a consistent angle of attack when standard ground. This makes it much more predictable than the variable angle grinds on my bowl gouges. For convex work it's unsurpassed at taking the great thick shaving, and at taking fine planing cuts. You can't be dumb, though. You must remember to keep the toolrest in close, the handle well down below and to lead with the flute, allowing that edge to trail.

I would never recommend use of the roughing gouge with the bottom of the bowl toward the headstock, but one of the reasons I use the bottom first method, holding on the pillar inside the bowl, is that I am able to use the "roughing" gouge to either move a lot of green wood out of the way, or make the final planing cut on a retrued dry piece.

It's a beautiful thing.

In article , snipped-for-privacy@cs.com says... snip...

Forget about it. You don't want to do this -- especially at this stage of the game. Sometimes it can be used to scrap a small detail on the outside of the bowl but it is really a spindle tool.

The normal way of finishing the outside of a bowl (at least in the US) is to use an Ellsworth grind bowl gouge (or an Irish grind or a Jordan grind -- same thing) in shear-scraping mode. Then finish up with a shear scraper. You will be way ahead if you will find somebody to teach you to grind a tool to the proper profile and use it. Next best it tape or books but one-on-one is the way to go.

Bill

My responses are interspersed:

RP wrote: "I read in the instructions that the big roughing gouge is not to be used on bowls, but that it is for spindle work."

****************************** Roughing between centers is where the roughing gouge excels, however that does not mean you can't use it to rough the outside of a bowl shape. It could be useful for wider diameter bowls rather than smaller or more closely curved ones. Not a good idea to use it inside as previous posters have explained.

RP wrote: "I thought that bowl gouges were for the inside of the bowl. Do you use bowl gouges on the outside of bowls too?"

*********************************** I use the 3/8" bowl gouge for just about everything possible. I round spindle stock, shape spindles, rough and final cut inside and outside of bowls, turn it up on edge at 90 degrees without rubbing the bevel for a skew-quality cut (very light touch here).

RP wrote: " I am self taught so forgive me if the obvious escapes me."

********************************* The disadvantage of being self-taught, as I am, is that you learn "bad" habits and use the tools "wrong". The advantage of being self-taught is that you will probably experiment more with the tools and discover great things! : )

RP wrote: " Also, has anyone ever attempted to use a skew on the outside of bowls? "

******************************* Yes, I do it often; the skew is the second tool I reach for after the 3/8" bowl gouge. It actually is my favorite tool.

With the lathe OFF, hold whatever tool against the wood and hand turn the piece watching how the blade will cut or catch. There is nothing "wrong" with teaching yourself, just be sure to "teach" yourself!

Hold each tool in every cutting position possible and see what it will do. I really believe you can get too hung up on what the turning tool people tell you about the "proper" or "right" use for that tool. Yes, each tool has it's "best" usage. Yes, you must put safety first.

Sorry about getting carried away here! I think being comfortable with the tools and really knowing them is right up there with using the "right" tool the "good" way. I don't think there are "bad" habits IF it works for you (and you are CAREFUL!).

Ruth

Woodturners Logo My shop and Turnings at

RP,

What tripe. I need to put forth a couple of points about the other replys you got.

First, the second woodturner was taught by the 1st ever woodturner who was self taught. Everything we know comes from self taught techniques passed down. Everyone is self taught by proxy. Every new (or rediscovered) technique, e.g., Raffins back hollowing of boxes, is self taught. It is so arrogant to look down your nose at self taught. Just as it would be to say, anyone who needs to be taught is too lame to figure it out for themselves. We all need some help and some ability to work things out for ourselves. Cooperation not competition.

Second, a roughing gouge is a heavy and somewhat coarse tool used to quickly true & smooth to a point where a finer tool can be used to put a finish to the wood. Same with a jack plane vs a smoothing plane, or framing vs finish carpenters, for that matter. Nothing precludes using it on the outside of a bowl blank to rough it out. Just don't expect a finished surface from it.

To answer your roughing gouge question, the outside of a bowl is essentially spindle work on a large diameter, very short piece. The only difference is grain orientation. It can easily be done with a (sharp) roughing gouge. Since you are cutting along curves the corners should be ground back some for clearance to avoid catches. But that needs to be done on any gouge that's going to be used for more than uniformly straight sided cylinders.

As far as using a skew on the outside of a bowl, probably not. Raffan recommends using the skew on the outside of boxes and in select places inside and on the ends of boxes and bowls. It's very tricky "take utmost care" type work and not many are willing to invest the time & effort to learn the techniques. I have to admit, catches with the skew can be monumentally spectacular, both in scare factor and damage done. People who have mastered the skew can do amazing things with them but I'm not sure the outside of a bowl is the best place for one. Not that it couldn't be done with enough practice, but there are better tools for the job.

Ruth, Just how do you use the skew on the outside of a bowl? I can see using it on an end-grain turning in which the wood is oriented like a spindle and I can see using the point for decorative grooves but do you use it to smooth the surface on a normally mounted bowl with end-grain? I only did it once and very quickly decided the skew wasn't meant for that sort of thing. Thanks, Billh

James,

Great job of providing positive feedback that will maintain a new turner's enthusiasm. I especially liked the way you suggested that one- on-one instruction may be useful for learning the correct techniques with the various tools, not to mention the empathy you displayed since all of us at one time couldn?t tell the difference between a bowl gouge and a skew.

I am sure that RP will not hesitate to post another question to this newsgroup.

Keep posting these encouraging replies James.

Bill

"James Barley" wrote in news:Qby8b.950547$ snipped-for-privacy@news3.calgary.shaw.ca:

Like you, I am self taught. I have tried using the roughing gouge on bowl blanks and have experienced a wonderful lesson in keeping my composure. The constant cathces I have experienced have made me leave it on the table and use only the bowl gouge.

The only reason I can give for the catches is that I cannot get my tool rest high enough to get the right angle for the roughing gouge.

Deb

RP Ed> I just purchased a Sorby set from Sears. $180 for six tools. Not a

Hello RP,

Anyone who says the roughing gouge can't be used on bowls should watch Soren Berger of New Zealand turn a bowl from start to finish with a 2" roughing gouge. I can't do it, but I watched Soren demonstrate this at the Utah Woodturning Symposium several years ago. He made a huge pile of shavings and did the whole thing with a 2" roughing gouge.

I agree with most of the comments that a bowl gouge is a better tool for bowls. However, we must all remember that the main purpose of any cutting tool is to cut wood and it will do so if the tool is applied properly to the wood. Del Stubbs demonsrated this several years ago by turning with an axe blade.

Most of us woodturners were self taught. Some chose to go and get some teaching before they tried, but most of us started out with a lathe and a book and some wood. I had a set of home forged tools and a stack of firewood. Unfortunately, I wasn't even sure what the tools should look like. I just made tools that would cut wood and had a good time. Then a visitor, who turned wood, told me how my tools were all wrong.

You bought a set of fine tools and you probably will use all of them. Enjoy woodturning and enjoy this newsgroup. Continue to ask questions and ignore the answers that you don't like. Remember there is no wrong way to do thing. There are just many ways to do the same thing and many of them are better than others. What works for you is what is important.

Fred Holder

Ruth said it all with her usual style & grace.

Didja ever notice that most self taught turners, never having been taught to fear a skew, prefer it for many turning situations.

Fortiter,

IMHO, a roughing gouge is a good tool for the exterior of medium to large "end grain" (wood grain running parallel to the lathe bed) vessels: it can get you to the shape that you want quickly. I have never tried one on the inside, expect that I'd be catching all over the place.

Kip Powers Rogers, AR

Billh wrote: "Just how do you use the skew on the outside of a bowl? ....snip.... "I only did it once and very quickly decided the skew wasn't meant for that sort of thing."

******************************** Oh, it took a long time and lot of practice to get good at it! First I'd like to say I learned to turn from Dale Nish book "Master Turners" (or something like that from 1970's and the Raffan "Turning Projects" (they were the only 2 books on turning the library had). I was turning for 6 yr. before I ever saw a person in real life use a lathe and never knew there were other turners out there! I'm only telling you this so you see how isolated (recluse!) I was. Raffan seemed to use the skew a lot, so did I and started using it "wrong" (as some would say).

Bless me Father for I have sinned....... I start at the rim, heal tip (point) leading, start a gentle shaving cut without the bevel touching anything and gently (I can't say that word enough), gently guide it down until the bevel is rubbing, the skew, with my body, follows the curve of the bowl to the foot.

Disclaimer: I am not (NOT) advocating anyone try this or that it is a good technique.

I've made grown men shutter when they've watched me do this. This is one of those "no one told me not to do that" things. I have a very light touch and have had very few catches with the skew. Most of my catches are with the gouges. Also please don't take offense at the "Bless me Father", I am religious and meant it as "ok, here goes my confession" so please read it that way only.

Ruth

Woodturners Logo My shop and Turnings at

You know, I've been curious to know about the business of using the skew outside. Now I understand how you avoid the disaster of digging in, you're cutting downhill on the form, even though uphill on the grain. That would clear the catch danger once the bevel was riding.

I do the same with a half-inch square-ground beading tool, but of course it's down grain up shape, and I start the cut on the upper part. If the roughing gouge didn't do such a nice planing cut, I'd try that method.

May I assume you're cutting toward the headstock as well? With my cut, of course it's toward the head.

Not necessarily. It'll work across the face of a bowl you're hollowing to a point, but there comes a time where you have too much "in" direction to get the flute riding before you run up the side with your cut. Maybe an inch or two deep in my case (12" swing) before I arrive at that point. It's the same limit you run into trying to use a 3/4 or 5/8 bowl gouge in a 3-4" bowl, and for the same reason, you go to a smaller diameter.

No its not my way, its the way of most woodturners as a method of SAFE and effective turning. Maybe the way you have outlined here may work for you. But in neglecting to share that information the first time, you could have invariably told a new woodturner to go try and use the roughing gouge inside and outside of your bowls with no consequence. That is bad practice.

I use a skew on the outside to finish a bowl using shearing cuts.

First let me start off by saying I'm lazy. When I saw my teacher, Eli Avisera, use the skew for just about everything, I knew that is one tool I have to master. I had lots of catches atthe beginning but I was stubborn and tried over and over again.

Back to bowls:

I hone my skew before use. this is a classic skew [not oval or rolled edge] and has a radius/Raffan edge. I put my tool rest high enough so the skew blade will access the middle of the bowl I'm working on. I lay the chisel flat on the tool rest and gently move along the piece and take shear cuts, simple as that.