I guess I'm confused

My apologies George, when you replied to my statement, I thought it was in my reply to yours from before and it was Ralph and not you. I would still argue against teaching someone right off the bat to start using the roughing gouge on bowls. Let them learn the traditional methods first to learn safe tactics before going exploring other methods. The best way is to learn from another turner. You can watch and see what they are doing. But learning what each tool does for its INTENDED use will help them learn safe and correct practices first and thus overcome learning of bad habits. People will say, grind the tips back of the roughing gouge to avoid catches.... in doing so, all you are doing then is creating a larger deeper deep fluted bowl gouge for the most part. The only problem with that is that the mass of steel is weaker in its configuration than that of a round bar that a deep fluted bowl gouge is ground from. If you want a large gouge like that, I would suggest getting a 5/8th or 3/4" bowl gouge for such work. Let the roughing gouge be used for its intended work, of roughing cylinders. And keeping the wings on the roughing gouge, you can then roll the tool over on its side and take nice planing cuts. With a good grind, you can get a cut that can almost rival a skew in that instance. Almost I said, but not quite. But for beginners, its a good quality cut. RP has all the basic tools it sounds. A roughing gouge, a skew a bowl gouge. Why don't we let him use the tools for what they were designed? Then after he becomes comfortable with those tools and the correct technique, explain some other methods and uses.

From your description below, with the skew flat on the toolrest,I visualize a scraping action rather the a slice or cutting action, is this correct?

You don't take the edges back on the gouge. Then it wouldn't be as useful at sizing tenons in spindle work. These folks using skews are really using a less stable version of my roughing gouge, as the planing surface on the gouge in use is a virtual straight edge. The fact that the gouge is presented with handle low keeps the unground edge doubly safe, as it is not in contact with the work by virtue of being above the cut, and, as I am cutting from base to rim toward the headstock, trailing in air over a thinner part of the work. The flute of the gouge is much more stable than the edge of a skew as it rides the rest, at least in my hand.

The consistent angle of the grind reduces the problem to one in two dimensions, rather than three. It maintains a constant angle of attack by extending it out more, or sliding it back on the rest, versus a changing angle of attack as is used by the bowl gouge shearing on the right flute, where the distance of the rest from the work causes you to chase the sweet spot to regain the shear.

Anyway, I guess the one who said the self-taught are the ones who learn without prejudice is real close to the truth. If no one told you it was a "roughing" or a "bowl" or a "spindle" gouge, you'd just experiment with it and learn its limitations. Those who learn from another tend to follow the prejudices of their teacher, whose technique may be the limiting factor rather than the tool.

Which is why access to the experience of others (lots of 'em) is a good thing. Perhaps if turners wrote of their experiences, say, on the internet....

SNIP of information invalid at short overhang distances.

Inside is easier for me than some, because the piece is still between centers. I can sweep the gouge left and right from rim to post, rolling to keep the shavings running from the wings of the gouge. It may be "unsupported fibers," or "uphill" to some, but I just call it hogging. Finesse can come later.

I see that you've gotten lots of responses and some advice too. So, I'll not go into my own details but just add that I do use a roughing gouge (mostly outside but sometimes inside of shallow ones) and I do use a skew on the outside of bowls. I also use shallow fluted gouges (many times referred to as "spindle gouges" ) on bowls (inside and out) all the time as well. Oh, and I do use deep-fluted gouges ("bowl gouge" ) and various scrapers too just in case you thought I break ALL of the rules. ha!

It all depends on what works best in a given situation. Just be safe and experiment. I believe there are very few rules in woodturning. The common name given to a particular tool isn't a rule to me ... it's a suggestion.

"All you need is a skew",

- Andrew

Some of us(me) didn't even have a book when we started, just the lathe a basic set of tools and the urge to make shavings. I had to learn how the tools were used by the name of the tool. ie gouge - gouge out wood; parting tool - part piece of wood off from rest of blank. Skew chisel ?(still a mystery). I never had or heard of a bowl gouge back then and hollowed out my first bowls with a spindle gouge, parting tool and the point of a skew chisel.

It took a lot of trial and error and some impressive catches but I learned. I used tools in ways back then that I wouldn't think of using now. But I am glad that I can use the tools in those ways if I have to. I am not suggesting that beginners learn the way I did, but like you said Fred the tools are for cutting wood.

I get very fine shavings as if I used a bowl gouge with a fingernail grind and the finish while not being glassy, reguires less sanding than if it was scraped.

Try it next time you do a bowl. Lay the skew flat on the tool rest [after it's been finely honed]. advance the skew slowly towards the wood until you see the fine shavings. Now follow the contour ot the bowl. Let me know what results you get.

I hope it turns our for the best,

Ron

I think all turners have done this on occasion but your now using the skew as a scraper. Not that theres anything wrong with that.

Bob, Naugatuck Ct.

Hi Ruth. What's the quality of the surface like after you skew it? I ask because, in my wee little brain, I'm picturing the tool "going the wrong way" in relation to the recommended direction of travel with respect to the wood grain for a face-grain bowl.

_____ American Association of Woodturners Cascade Woodturners Assoc., Portland, Oregon Northwest Woodturners, Tigard, Oregon _____

Back hollowing is a technique that has been used by turners for donkeys years Raffin discribed it in his book he did not invent or rediscover it. Dennis White and old turners that have served apprenticeships and spent years turning will tell you never to use a roughing gouge on bowls. In fact Ray Jones who has been a professional turner for forty odd years starts his bowl turning demonstrations by throwing his roughing gouge down and stating that his what to do with a roughing gouge when bowl turning.

Hey RP, all I can say is what works for me, I have been turning for a living for 12 years and only ever had one roughing gouge, Broke it and never looked back. I rough out using a 1/2 bowl gouge and trim with at 1/4 inch bowl gouge... I am only saying what I do and have done, so please, don't read that as one way better then the other, just the way I do it.... which is really all anyone should be saying, there are no rule books and rights and wrongs, this is fun and not worth fighten over....... Have fun with it and practice what ever method you choose until it is second nature and the results will come....... Cheers... Ken..

-- Ken & Debbie Bullock (Woodturners)

Hi Ken. How's the retirement coming along? You still on your southward travels?

_____ American Association of Woodturners Cascade Woodturners Assoc., Portland, Oregon Northwest Woodturners, Tigard, Oregon _____

If RP was confused when he started this thread I should think he is even more confused now. Advice to a newbie should should be all about safety. Safety means using the right tool for the job. The right tool is one that is accepted as such by many competent turners over many years. The name of the tool is usually a good indication of what it should be used for.

Newbies should not be encouraged to use a roughing gouge on a bowl. They most certainly should not be encouraged to use a skew on a bowl.

I always tell my students not to use a roughing gouge on a bowl. I have experience of teaching groups of students. Occasionally a student has started using a roughing gouge on a bowl when my attention was directed elsewhere. In these cases the sound has immediately alerted me to the fact that something was terribly wrong. Fortunately, I don't think that anyone has ever tried to use a skew (in the cutting mode)in one of my classes.

What is the problem for a newbie in using the roughing gouge. The answer is simple: it wants to grab too much wood, and that can create a lot of force. When it does grab too much it could pull the bowl off of the chuck. So it is potentionally a very dangerous practice - for a beginner.

Experienced turners can do all sorts of weird things successfully. What they do is up to them. As for turners who are entirely self taught - I assume that means not even looking at a book - than all I can say is that they must like living dangerously.

Rant over.

Brian Clifford at The Woodturner's Workshop

Guess you teach 'em different than I. HS students seem fully capable of using the gouge when given proper instruction in its use. Makes you wonder how the first turner to forge a steel gouge even got his "invention" past the bronze advocates.

"What's the quality of the surface like after you skew it? I ask because, in my wee little brain, I'm picturing the tool "going the wrong way" in relation to the recommended direction of travel with respect to the wood grain for a face-grain bowl."

************************** Hi Owen,

Nice to see you, and your brain is just fine! : )

The quality of the surface is very nice, I can start sanding with 280 paper. A lot depends on the species of the wood, I don't use this technique on all wood. And you're right, I am going against recommended direction of travel with respect to the wood grain but some wood just doesn't seem to mind.

I think the key word is "recommended".

Ruth

Woodturners Logo My shop and Turnings at

Hey Arch,

"Murphy was an optimist."

Hi Ruth. I was thinking about your techinque again and I'm wondering if it's behaving something similar to the shearing cut that John Jordan illustrates on his video using the ground-back bowl gouge. (Others illustrate the same technique too, I'm just more positive on connecting JJ with the scene in a video.)

It's the cut where he turns the flute almost directly into the surface and lightly pulls it along, producing fluff shavings. There's very little if any bevel contact of the tool.

The first turner to use a gouge was not using a machine powered by an electric motor. All the first turners had was muscle power. It makes a big difference.

"It's the cut where he turns the flute almost directly into the surface and lightly pulls it along, producing fluff shavings. There's very little if any bevel contact of the tool."

************************* Owen, Yes, it's that same cut. I use the bowl gouge that same way and it's great for a final shearing cut.

If you take the skew, bowl gouge, scraper and/or spindle gouge, hand turn the lathe and slowly rotate or hold each tool in as many positions as it will produce a cut, you'll see that each one is making the same cut only in different positions. For instance, you're not rubbing the bevel when you angle a scraper up and pull it from the bottom out to the rim, so the bowl gouge also would have no bevel touching the wood.

*The most important thing is to have all your attention on the cutting edge; the bevel has never caused a catch! : )

Ruth

Woodturners Logo My shop and Turnings at