Plagiarism

Very interesting - thank you for the link. A design patent certainly appears to apply to some of the turning work out there (not to pick on Vesery any more than necessary) but Jacques Vesery's feather motif for starters.

A thought. Perhaps this plagarism topic has merely been an annoyance to professional turners because they know that to protect their designs is a test of vigilance and likely not worthwhile given the relatively short life of design "freshness" and thus diminishing financial returns over a few years. Therefore to maximize income off the design they turn to the demonstration circuit to which previous infringement lawsuits would be a PR nightmare. Make a body of work with the design for the collectors, museums and clientele and move on to the next idea, leaving the design to the imitators.

I looked up the term, "moral rights," and found little in the US Govt. patent and copyright office information. One of only a few "hits" is: "Intellectual Property and the National Information Infrastructure" "The Report of the Working Group on Intellectual Property Rights"

It appears it's readily used internationally but is relatively unused within the United States' domestic terminology.

No! Really? Them thar's fightin' words.

;)

in the style of" or an attempt at producing work originated by Johnabob Ellsonik, professional turner

If they dont mention that this is an imitation (when they know it is) then they are ethically bankrupt. But of the person who grew up on a diet of (I haven't been doing this long enough to know the old famous turner's names, so please insert them) who has turnings that have been created from all his experience in life. He owes a little to each. A new style is only developed out of boredom with the old. (Particularly aesthetic things as they aren't usually born out of necessity) you do this or that a bit different (or musically, add a trombone to a string quintet) My main question is on the origin of creativity. If we start from a base that was built around a Raffan book then could one say that anything we create, we owe to Raffan?

Unfortunately there will always be dogs who will try to make money on someone else's back.

I often think, thats nice, I'll try something like that. What i end up with is never the same (not only out of lack of skill, but mainly and the fact that I dont want to copy.) I finished this beautifuil Black wattle bowl today.

What about saueracker shells?

SNIP of Prevailing Wage Apologetic

And we'll have socialism when we start telling people what they may or may not receive for their own work.

Just call me, Vlad.

I certainly hope I'm not coming across as dictating to people what they can or can not charge. My point is that few have actually run through the calculations or unabashedly value their abilities and so really don't know how unfair they are being to themselves - as well as the turning market as a whole.

or fascism

Da comrade!

Your points are good. Most people don't make those calculations.

From the calculations you (you -- in general) can draw a some conclusions... After comparing your work to other people...

You work too slow... (They work too slow) They charge too little (You charge too much) You are not good enough (They are simply exceptional) Your work is "fine (Their work is coarse...) I sit between him and her in quality (They sit between me and the other guy) etc.

From that research/comparison set you can set prices in general...

A lesson from marketing... A new low price is a new high price. (For everyone.) FWIW

Like anything else, they are worth what the market is willing to pay.

There are two parts to the equation that have to be expressed. First of all, an "artist" that lives on their turning revenue must be able to do so. They have to attempt to determine what hourly wage they "need" to make to get by.

The other half is what the market will bear. I don't care how good your wooden bowls are or how long you take to make them, the market will only pay you so much for them.

The question that every turner making a living at it needs to deternine, therefore, is: "Does the market value of the stuff I do support my needed minimum wage?". Of course, you need to factor in your own learning curve to this.

Here is an example. I made "Dick Sing-like" ornaments with a finial and top from a different wood, adding my own finial and ball design. The market where I sell would not support more than about $20 to $25 for these ornaments. Since I can't make them fast enough, I quit doing them. I changed my ornament design and do something that I can make a reasonable profit with.

Joe Fleming - San Diego

But Owen I don't just sell "in my region". I sell through my website AND locally. It is notoriously hard to sell woodturnings locally so I have to price items accordingly. Should I price items on my web site for the local or international market? You see my quandry?

Snip

But again Owen, you mention an "acceptable range". Doesn't mean a damn thing except to you in your area. My market is NOT the same as yours. I remember quite some time ago reading where Steven Russell had sold a perfume applicator for, as I recall, around $300.00. Hell I'd be lucky to get that for my truck in my local market.....:-)

Not even going to try and convice you that minimum wage is fair.....but are you trying to tell me that a simple hollow vessel that takes an hour or two to complete is worth several thousand dollars? How much does that same hollow vessel bring in Australia....the UK......Nigeria.......??

The absolute LAST thing I consider, if at all, when pricing my turnings is the "turning market as a whole". I have enough trouble with pricing without worrying if I am meeting some "standard pricing" to support the "industry". After all I really just want enough return to pay for my sandpaper..........:-)

I'm assuming we're still referring to the $100 vs. $900 Ellsworth-style of hollow vessel. If you can turn such a vessel to completion in an hour or two and have it comparable to his to such a degree that an experienced woodturner (Darrell) wasn't able to tell a difference other than the signature then, criminey, I am not worthy of being in your presence. ;)

I don't know about comparable vessels internationally, but I have seen the prices for Tobias Kaye's sounding bowls and Hans Weissflogs lattice boxes and they are certainly expensive from my bank account's point of view.

(Just had to type of this quick comment as I mull the responses to my posts.)

Yep, that's what socialism comes disguised as - 100% fairness.

The Kingfish never said that, of course.

How much effect do folks who sell at very inexpensive prices (meaning prices which may not accurately reflect the time, materials, skill, etc. required to produce the product) have on keeping the market depressed? (Rhetorical question unless someone wants to tackle it.)

Exactly. Regarding the first paragraph above, my comment is that it should apply to any turner, whether desiring to make a living at it or merely augmenting his income by selling turnings.

Thank you Joe for relating your personal experience with the ornaments. Recognizing that you were spending more time on them than you were getting paid for is exactly my point - and one which I don't believe other turners responding to this discussion accept.

Using the term "regional" was probably too limited to geographic definition. I see your point, but would clarify that your selling "region" is whatever sphere you choose to present your work - geographic, by clientele, by venue, etc.

As to your problem of selling locally, it sounds as though you are putting too much time or materials into the products and can't recoup the costs because the buyers can't afford the finished items, for whatever reason. Your response to this is to sell for less than you need? Or do you cut back on time or materials to lessen your costs to produce the items? (You can cut back on time by finishing to a lesser degree or having fewer details of design.) I hope you are not trapped by the mindset that to sell for any price is better than selling nothing.

I was going to add to that last sentence above, "You won't be in business long with that sales strategy." It occurred to me that therein might lie the crux of the pricing debate. Many turners who sell to augment their income do not do so with a business mindset. They don't see that they are indeed in business (no matter how small) and should approach it in a business-like manner. They would rather sell something for any price than sell nothing at all.

snip

You are correct that the range in my sphere may be different than that in yours. However... The $900 Ellsworth and $100 imitator were not offered in different spheres. Nor was the Russell perfume applicator offered in yours.

The pricing exercise for the juried show that I mentioned in a previous post caused me a lot of uneasyness. The venue is in a high income area, the show will feature invited turners from around the world, and I have no experience participating in anything of this level - this arena is certainly outside my own social and economic circles. I wanted to price my work to ensure I wasn't leaving money on the table while at the same time being realistic to what the audience might find financially acceptable. At the price my fellow turners and I seemed to gravitate towards, I can spend a little extra time to ensure the work is as perfect as my skills allow. Another venue that might not support the same price would not get the same attention to detail. (But that opens an entirely different can'o'worms - do you make substantially similar work to varying degrees of fineness to sell to non-similar markets?) In other words, highly skilled and detailed work demands a decent return. If one is making work to the same level as another turner and displayed in the same market then the works should be priced similarly.

The arguments in this thread seem to eminate from those who say they feel no obligation to the good of the selling community. What happens when you find that you are being undercut by similarly skilled and detailed work? How are you going to respond when the pieces you were selling for $20, $40 or $100 are now being left on the table because Joe over yonder is selling imitations of your work for 10% of what you charge. Hell, he doesn't care what he gets for it - he says he's just as happy giving it to passersby, afterall, it's only a hobby to him.

Owrn:

As I said previously...

A new low price is a new high price. (Given equal apparent value.)

However, that assumes "perfect knowledge". In most markets people are not aware of all the choices -- unless you make them aware.

So one rule is -- do not "sell against" lower priced items. Indeed do not sell against _anything or anyone_ -- unless you are both the best and the cheapest -- together.

Another rule: You can move "down-market" easily. But once you become known for low price and/or low quality is difficult to move up-market.

Another rule: If you are selling art items -- "one-off" the fewer you sell the better off you are. That means that to earn a living you need high prices and relatively few sales transactions - the fewer the better... Selling takes time and effort.

Another issue. Calculate your cost of sales. I have heard time and materials over and over again here and in similar forums. But few people understand "marketing costs" and "selling costs" -- or if they do, they deem them inconsequential.

In an "art" businesss. Cost of sales and marketing are your most significant costs. Material is _usually_ and inconsequential cost.

Marketing

--------- Advertising Internet access/Web page Photography Costs Ad design costs Marketing Campaign costs Show costs Travel to show costs

Sales

----- Office expense Delivery costs Shipping costs Telephone costs Overhead.

Marketing is the art pf having what you can get rid of. Sales is the art of getting rid of what you have.

Marketing is strategic -- your education, your choice of subject and presentation, your choice of sales methodology, your means and methods of advertising.

Sales is tactical and is about getting rid of the piece in hand to the person in front of you. You don't make "marketing calls" -- you make sales calls.

On advertising - every ad should _sell_ - forget "Image Advertising". Always try to sell something you have if you pay for an ad.

Was that enough?

Owen Lowe wrote:

Why do you keep insisting others play only by your rules?

You're displaying a lot of contempt for freedom of choice by both the creator and purchaser of the piece here. Nobody can sell for a price which they consider ample compensation, nor can anyone buy a piece by anyone but those deemed elite, or at outrageously inflated prices? What's left for the hoi polloi?

Touch of reality. We're selling round pieces of wood which we mostly create to give ourselves pleasure and diversion, to people who are still allowed to spend their disposable income on our stuff, or maybe the potter or painter down the way, too. It would be nice if the buyers felt as if they owed us a living, as we're supposed to feel toward the big names, but people can be darn particular about backing their own taste with their money even when you keep telling them what's good or who's deserving. I wouldn't have it any other way. They are, after all buying turnings, which, when you think of it, is what creates a market. An unsold turning is a total loss.

I've done three tuitions on turnings. Now, granted, they're at state universities, but it was nice to have the opportunity to sell my firewood to appreciative customers, rather than sit and carp about the taste of people who were not buying my stuff, like others I've met. If you can't sell your turnings for what you think they're worth, take up basketry, needlepoint, or anything else which will earn what you think is fair. Let the folks who enjoy turning sell their intermediate pieces for what they feel is fair to finance the next, and get it out in front of the public (and off their shelf), where it becomes, even to an elitist, at least a poor example to which the work of the established (how _did_ they get established, anyway?) may be compared. More power to 'em, and may they grow in their craft and capability by getting some return for a turning that some elite "jurist" might throw in the stove.

Don't see that he is.

Depending on one's individual circumstances, that may be the case (or close to it). For someone with lots of time and very little money, selling for any price above the break-even point may indeed be preferable to not selling.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?