Riding the Bevel and Grinding the Bevel

Hello John,

What many people do to eliminate or reduce this problem is the use two bevels. One is a short or narrow bevel at the cutting edge and then a secondary bevel which grinds away a part of the heal of the bevel. With this method, there is a very short bevel riding on the wood and the problems you describe disappear. The actual cutting bevel is generally about 1/16 inch to 1/8 inch wide. The rest of the normal bevel is ground away at a different angle to get it out of the way when turning.

My recommendation would be to give it a try and see how you like it. I've used tools with no more that a 1/16 inch wide bevel with excellent success. Several well known turners do this.

Fred Holder

John, "Riding the bevel" is a convenient concept that helps beginners gently move the tool into a cutting orientation. Many seem to think they are riding the heel of the bevel at the same time as the cutting edge. You have just figured out that it doesn't make sense. Congratulations.

In reality, the part of the bevel that actually rides on the wood is a few thousandths of an inch immediately behind the cutting edge. Secondary bevels make it easier to "get around the corner" on the inside of a bowl but do not actually change the geometry of "riding the bevel" on the outside of a form.

Since a great many experienced turners hone the edge after grinding by spanning the hollow with a diamond stone they have returned the basic geometry to a flat grind.

Essentially, with a gouge you want to cut with the lower edge on a tangent to the circle. Starting by riding the bevel and increasing the angle until shavings start to appear is the safest and surest way to accomplish that.

Good luck, David

John wrote:

He speaks the truth. You guide parallel to the edge, allowing the wood to slide down and separate the shaving by skewing the tool.

SNIP

Get the tool firm to the rest, use a steep entry angle and/or the pointy portion of your grind to poke into the cut, laying the tool back on enough bevel to guide as the shaving begins. "Riding" the bevel, as in the type of prying action the term implies, will get bruised wood in the fresh cut areas.

The term "riding the bevel" confused the heck out of me.

I kept getting these funny marks on the outside of the bowls that were fibers slightly roughed up, not smooth.

I've heard them called bruises.

I couldn't get rid of them until it was pointed out to me that "riding the bevel" didn't mean pressing the bevel into the wood. For me the better term is "guiding on the bevel" to hold the cutting edge in the right position, but putting pressure on the tool guide to hold the tool steady, and light pressure against the cutting edge, to feed the tool into the cut. (And if the light pressure became heavy pressure, to take a few seconds and sharpen said bevel).

Made a world of improvement in my cuts, so now I am on to other and greater faults.

Old Guy

Thanks for making this original post and thanks to those who replied. This "riding the bevel" has been a total mystery to me. Even when I see videos of woodturning, the craftsman often doesn't really seem to be "riding the bevel". They seem to be using the gouge as a scraper. OTOH, I see some pretty shiny looking cuts just behind the tool. Aren't they from the bevel rubbing on the work?

Pete Stanaitis

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John wrote:

Burnishing with the bevel 'riding hard' on the wood is why I don't like to rough out with a skew.

You are right on robo. Once I get a 'bevel burnish' mark, it wants to last thru the whole turning process and even tries to show up on my display shelf.

Reverse sanding seems to heal the bruises somewhat, but it can leave a scab and later a faint scar. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

You got some great answers, John, and I learned form your post, so thanks for bringing it up.. Hell, I've been trying to ride the whole damn bevel for years, since George advised me too.. Now that I know what the term really means, I realize that I'm actually doing it right when I don't "ride the bevel"..lol Like a lot of things, I needed more knowledge/experience before I could understand George's advise...

A tip I picked up a few years ago that helped me quite a bit was to quit trying to sharpen the edge of a tool.. it never worked.. You sharpen the bevel and the edge will take care of itself...

A very simple fact that I just learned (maybe that's why my sharpening sucks) is that if you can see an edge, it isn't sharp...

mac

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AHHA!!!!

Pete Stanaitis

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Arch wrote:

In message , Fred Holder writes

Fred,

After reading yours, and the other posts I think you have hit the nail on the head, with the use of 2 bevels. The cutting bevel means that the tool cutting edge has body behind it giving strength, and the second bevel, which could be called a clearance bevel as it gives clearance from the surface giving greater manoeuvrability. This to me makes most sense, so I will be giving it a try shortly.

It also makes sense from a grinding point of view. Using a scraper for example, if you first grind the clearance bevel, and then the effort to grind the cutting bevel would be minimal, as there is less meat to take away. Obviously as the cutting bevel is re-ground over time the clearance bevel would diminish.

Another issue I have seen in cheaper tools is that the bevel is often at

45 degrees, which provides an inherent weakness at the tip. But if a cutting bevel is now ground at the correct angle, you have a default clearance bevel for free. Though I suspect this would need looking into a little further as the heat dissipation of the tool would likely be reduced due to less metal in the clearance bevel.

In message , Arch writes

Arch, taking this a step further in understanding the 'bevel burnish mark'. As you say they don't want to go away.

My thoughts are the mark is caused by the localised drying of the wood, caused by the friction created by the tool. This drying penetrating some distance into the wood as the moisture in the fibres decreases. Basically the wood shrinks back.

I wonder if the addition of moisture to the marks would 'revitalise' the wood?

Maybe this is an experiment in the making

Mac, I wonder how many people never ride the bevel, just present the tool and cut ?

I know I am probably taking a risk, but I so often find I just present the tool at the exact angle needed and get on with it, its almost like an inbuilt instinct for what is right. I almost have to consciously force the tool to ride the bevel before contact. I keep saying to myself I must do better , but it hasn't worked yet

A good example is a winged object where you spend most of the time turning air, riding the bevel isn't easy, just slowly presenting the tool

Maybe this is why I was able to create captive rings within my first few hours of turning back in September, and not doing one till last weekend I created a captive ring only 1/2 inch diameter on a 1 1/2 inch tall goblet.

I used it as a learning tool, and for safety, when I first started turning. Now it is automatic to use the tool at the correct angle and I don't have to slide down the bevel until it starts cutting.

Watch your regrinds. A long bevel planes shallow, a short bevel turns corners, and a secondary bevel may just provide another heel to bruise the work. It can also complicate your entry poke.

Wet the wood and decompress. If you've not been too ham-handed, it can get things back up where you can get at 'em without further burnishing.

Enjoyed all of the "riding the bevel" things. One thing that I see very little discussion of (and I am primarily talking about doing small bowls 12 inch diameter or less) is the typical speeds that people use for the various operations. For example on my Jet 1442 when roughing a bowl, I work at the slowest speed until the exterior is round (450RPM). As the turning gets easier and everything comes into balance I find that I do most of my work around 1200 RPM or so. If I have end grain "fuzzies" on the surface, I have taken the speed up to 2000 RPM and use a very light touch with a freshly honed gouge. I would just like to hear peoples thoughts on this.

You could slow the rate of cut and get the same effect. Lots of people think that high speed gives them better cuts. No real reason why it should, of course, save that the tool gets a chance to burnish the wood when the speed is fast and the feed slow. We might take a thinner bite out of respect for the danger a high speed poses, as well.

It'd look really nice if we could use carving tools, and the piece doesn't move at all then....

IMHO, If it's intuitive and works, go with it... I've got a lot of suggestions here, some that I use, some I don't.. I think skill levels and tools vary so much that there are very few "rules"..

Sort of like when I was into bowling.. Everyone has the "right" stance, approach, release, etc... We use to say that if a guy won the finals 2 years in a row by hiking the ball like a quarterback, that would be the "right" style..

I see fantastic work by turners like Steve Russell, who grinds his gouges at different angles depending on the type and depth of bowl, and Oland who created fantastic work with a 1/4" bit in a holder... Whatever works for you is where you want to be..

mac

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