My gouge's bevel is not the same as it was yesterday! Can I live?

Fortiter

Kip Powers Rogers, AR

As most here know that have ever been to a turning demo by the more well known demonstrators, almost none use a sharpening jig. I have seen many demsonstrators in the past, and NONE of the ones I saw ever used a jig.

In fact, one of the turners I saw has some kind of affliction, and I won't mention who to avoid any possible embarassment. He is a great nationally recognized turner, and a really nice man. He sharpens "by eye".

His bevels and edges are inconsistent, and have more facets than a 2 inch diamond. Yet, he has no problem with them at all and he turns beautiful work.

After seeing that, I began to examine the bevels and edges on all the demonstrator's tools that would let me look. Some were better than others, but none looked like the Craft Supplies catalogue, rest assured.

Over the years, I have ground a lot of tool steel, and wouldn't buy a jig. After using the jig, I found that the smaller tools weren't much affected by jig use, and for some others it was just too much faster to knock the burr off quickly a the grinder rather than setting up something every sharpen. The only tools I put in the jig to resharpen from time to time is my 5/8" bowl gouge.

Other than that, I agree with Kip.... that's what wrists are for.

Robert

I hand sharpen on a 1" belt sander with the guide set at 35 degrees, but I do the fingernail by guess and by god. Never owned a jig. Used to do it on a disc mounted on the outboard of the lathe. Still living and still having fun.

Once again, if we could turn with the precision the jig provides, it'd be worth the effort. I know I can't, so I keep the tool moving a clean shaving by changing the angle of attack. Consistency in the bevel only plays if it shortens the sweet spot too much to peel or prevents turning a corner. My answer is to reach for a different tool rather than modify the one in hand.

Makes 'em last longer when you do.

On the other hand, some of us don't have the eyesight or coordination we once had. I fall into both categories and I find that eyeballing it takes me a lot longer that just slipping the tool 1 3/4" into the jig and taking one quick pass at the grinder. When I started turning about

5 years ago, I fell for the "real turners don't use jigs" myth. And I tried and tried to become a "real" turner until my tools were so short they didn't stick out past the holder on the jig!

I was at a Jimmy Clewes demo last year. His thought on the matter was "if the jig exists, why not use it?". He uses a vari-grind on his tools. I find myself holding specific tools a specific way pretty well repeatedly. I'd have to take some photos and some measurements to be exact on this but I'll bet that you'd find I handle each tool pretty well the same way every time I pick it up. I'm a big skew user and a different grind angle really throws me. My hands automatically assume "the skew position" whenever I pick one up and it changes whether I am using my 3/4" or my 1" skew.

I don't know. Maybe I just need a few more decades of experience! Maybe I just need to relax some!

I think a lot of the turning tools from Sorby and the like are made with a specific bevel in mind. They have found that the bevel they give is the optimum for general use. Sometimes we can change it for the way we hold the tool or a specific purpose but generally the bevel that comes on the tool is closest to being the best bevel for most uses. A couple degrees usually doesn't really make a difference.

Tim

I'd imagine it'd take quite a spectacular musing to get you drummed out, Arch- and we'd all suffer for it if it ever were to happen, I'd imagine.

For me, I don't care. If you follow rec.woodworking at all, there have been several threads on this in the past few weeks, and I can say without equivocation that *for me*, it simply does not matter- whether we are talking about turning tools or flatwork chisels. At the end of the day, they are all hand tools, and the cutting edge's sharpness is the only thing that matters. A one degree variation in the bevel is easily compensated for- usually subconciously. Unless a guy is turning or chiseling using a guide, there is no real sense in using a guide to hone the tool.

Establishing an initial bevel may be another matter- but some of the best innovations are accidental, and eliminating that divine slip of the hand by mechanical means is a good way to rob yourself of that.

I look at the edge. If I can see it, I don't have one yet. Once it's gone, it's there and I toddle back off to the lathe for a while longer.

I haven't checked bevel angle since I set my intro to turning book down and realized I couldn't find my protractor.

Between grinds I give my tools (most often just a skew) a few strokes on each side, check the edge with my thumb and get back to making shavings.

Bill

Very interesting post, Arch. Hope you're feeling well.

You basically asked "how much does a tool need to be physically the same to feel the same?" When I started turning in 1990, I learned from books, sharpening was a little difficult since the only tools I saw were the Sears set I owned. So I learned how to sharpen free hand and tried to keep the angles as close to original as possible but found if I changed this a bit this way and that a bit that way, I got better cuts. THEN I went to my first turning symposium and it was downhill from there!

I saw different shaped gouges, this grind for this skew, that grind for that skew, one turner demoing "be sure your bevel is exactly", another demo "use this tool for this cut" and everyone taking notes........including me. It took a while but I finally learned, I learned that if I threw away all those notes and sharpened whatever tool to MY way of cutting, that was the answer.

Robert and Prometheus said just about the same thing. Robert noted that all tools he checked at demonstrations were different and Prometheus said the "cutting edge's sharpeness is the only thing that matters."

Then Mike said "I find myself holding specific tools a specific way pretty well repeatedly". This pretty much answers your query, Arch. We all do this. Now a little variation in the exact degree of bevel should make absolutely no difference but if it gets too variated (is that a word?) now we try to lean, stand and rotate the tool to compensate. That's really no big deal, however when I'm trying to get a job done or get 2 dozen coffee scoops out, then it's a big deal because I turn faster and better if I can hold that tool "a specific way pretty well repeatedly".

We canNOT all use the exact same bevel/degree as Ellsworth, Jordan, Clewes, Permetheus or Arch. We have different grips, different strengths (fingers, wrist, forearm) and different heights. What happens when you try is you start a post "Why can't I get the xyz tool to cut?"

As far as using a jig, I'd been turning 7 yrs. before I knew there were jigs (I really need to get out more!) and I bought one, 18 mo. later I set it up, tried it and about 1 yr. later I thought maybe I should try it again! I was doing fine with sharpening my tools my way, right Fred? *Fred's my turning buddy who lurks here : )

Now I do use the jig for my bowl gouges and it's wonderful. I have no idea what degree or angle the bevel is, I etched a line on the jig where it sharpened the tools MY way. I still sharpen free hand a lot and use the jig to get the tool back to my original non-faceted grind.

Bottom line, it's you, the tool and the wood. I apologize if this is long, women tend to give longer responses! : )

Ruth

You said it all Ruth. If one is going to worry that much about tool angles then one might as well go to turning metal. Which I do also. A specific angle for a certain type of metal and a specific height above center for a certain diameter. I guess that is why they tool rest height so easily adjustable on wood lathes. Makes up for those little differences in tool angle for those of us that do not own jigs.

Fred

I don't believe exact bevel are that important, as someone before me said a degree to here or there doesn't realy matter that much. However, one must have some experience to be able to sharpen freehand well enough for the tool to cut, I know I'm still working on doing it right (I never bought a jig, I'm to cheap). I've only just succeeded in sharpening a skew so that it will cut nicely, I butcher gouges to get a fingernail grind, scrapers are easy, and I'm getting better each time I go to the grinder - just like turning, practice, practice, practice to get a good cutting edge that doesn't break on contact (that is why you need a bevel in the first place, at least one reason is to phisicaly support the cutting edge against the pressure of the cut, that's why scrapers need such a high angle)

The two points in favor of the jig are (in my opinion)

1. Helps people who want to focus on the turning part and not on the sharpening part achieve good edges (as we said, who cares about the bevel?)
2. Allows repeatablity, once you do find that angle that works for you, you can repeat it easily (not to mention that it will slow the tool consumption of the grinder)

My woodturning teacher Eli Avisera, sharpens freehand as well, but he recommends the wolverine jig to students because of point #1. In his lessons he gives the angles everybody knows about but he also explains that they are a guideline and not mandatory.

Turning

Dogma

Turning dogma?

Oxymoron!

I can't think of a single turning "rule".

ALWAYS cut into the downward moving wood? Nope. Most of the time that's true - but . . .

Symetric grind? Not always.

ALWAYS ride the bevel?

Turners

Anarchists

TRUE.

charlie b

Hi Charlie, I need to quash these false rumors right now. Yes I've been to the Bahamas, but I did not, repeat did _not father Anna Nichole's child! Yes there are Robert's rules of turning (not our Robert who shoots nails) and I would never break even one rule because I always follow the party line. I also sell bridges. If you need one, I just happen to have one in Brooklyn for sale. It's all we who try so hard to follow the rules can do to keep all you iconoclasts in line. :)

All that disclaimed, Thanks for your good contributions to the hobby. I really enjoy your perceptive posts and your website.

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter