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Sharpening - Tower of Babble?

I talked with four knowledgable people about what is and isn't a properly sharpened fingernail ground bowl gouge. One said hollow ground is preferred. One said hollow ground was a no-no. One said the Tormek produced hollow ground edge that was polished inside and out on leather strops was as close to perfect a cutting edge as you can get. Another said shiny polished surfaces don't necessarily mean "sharp". One well known and respected turner sent me over to the JoolTool lady to get a "real" sharp edge. The resulting bevel had a slightly convex curved bevel which another very experienced turner deemed undesirable because the curved bevel made it more difficult to "ride the bevel".

One said the fingernail was too long for a new turner, another said it was about right and one said it should be a bit longer.

One said the angle of the fingernail was too shallow, another said if was about right and yet another said it was too steep.

Seems sharpening is a Tower of Babble thing, everyone having their own preference - and justification for why their preference is better than any other. There is no doubt some underlying physics and geometry that determines the correct combination. There also appears to be many ways for a turner to compensate for grinds and sharpenings which are less than ideally perfect and still get the same quality of turned surface.

Unlike bench chisels and hand planes with their sharpening and use, turning tools have a significantly wider range of useable grinds and angles and a lot more ways to use them and still get pretty much the same results.

Now I've heard it said that a new turner should start off with lessons from a good turning instructor BEFORE developing some bad habits which must then be unlearned. But given the many ways to skin a cat, if the results are about the same, doesn't seem to matter how you get them.

Of course there are some hard and fast No-Nos which have more to do with avoiding catches and/or dodging flying wood and/or tool. But most of the rest is often a matter of personal preference.

charlie b

Reply to
charlie b
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Perhaps it's time to discard the words "ideal" and "perfect" in favor of simply "sharp?"

I've often said that when I am capable of using the edge produced by a jig with anywhere near the precision it was produced I'd get one. So far the only thing that comes close are laser or pattern guided captured tools. And they don't do as well as an educated hand and a turner's eye at producing a smooth surface.

Reply to
George

Charlie The use of a sharp tool is to cut wood. I think that is an obvious statement but it bears saying. A turner presents the tool to the wood so that the tool cuts wood. No two turners are alike. I, for instance, am shorter and stouter than most, or at least shorter. Suit people call me "executive" sized. My stand at the lathe is different from a David Ellsworth who looks to be a little lighter than I and about a foot taller. So we present tools a little differently, not much but a little. So the sharpening angle might be a little different. Bevels may be a tad different. Remember that in most cases the word "perfect" means "it works for me." Relax, sharpen to an edge that works, and turn.

Reply to
Darrell Feltmate

Hello Charlie,

You've just discovered why there are so many tools and so many ways to sharpen them. Every expert has a bit different way to sharpen their tools and in many cases special tools that no one else uses. Why? Because the tools and the sharpening method they use works for them. There is no right or wrong method, only what works or doesn't work for you.

I have three sharpening set ups in my shop:

  1. An 8" slow speed grinder from Woodcraft with a Wolverine Grinding jig set up on it. It does an excellent job of shapening most of my tools and I suppose I use it most because it is closest to my lathe. Before I got this system about 7 years ago, I sharpened my tools free hand or with a Robert Sorby Fingernail Gouge jig. After I purchased the Robert Sorby jig, I realized that a sharpening jig was so much easier to get consistent sharpening. The experts who claim that sharpening free hand is best, really mean it works for them and they don't want to be tied to using a jig. This is especially true for demonstrators who never know what form of sharpening system will be available during a demonstration.

  1. A 6" high speed grinder with coarser wheels and a Kelton Grinding Jig set up on it. I did have a Woodcut jig on it, but I've been trying out the Kelton Jig since I got it a couple of months ago. The Woodcut is an excellent jig and has fewer pieces to do the job.

  2. A Tormek with the woodturning sharpening package. I sharpen my bowl gouges on this grinder and I believe it produces the sharpest edge of all of the systems that I have. Not only the sharpest edge, but also the longest lasting edge. I've never run any scientific tests to prove that, but is seems to give the sharpest edge and the longest lasting edge. Tormek has become easier to set up with the new TTS-100 Setter that just became available.

The AAW has produced a video by four well known turners showing how each of them sharpen their tools. For a beginner, this is a good video. For an experienced turner who still has problems sharpening his tools, this is a good video.

For my bowl gouges, I use the Ellsworth grind or something close to it. I actually have the Ellsworth jig, which I use with the Wolverine jig with a small block of wood to raise the level high enough to fit the Ellsworth instructions. You can also grind the Ellsworth shape on the Tormek with the proper set up.

Alan Batty, who uses a lot of hard woods, says that a 45 degree bevel angle is best for all tools cutting hard woods. That is for skew chisels and spindle gouges. I personally use about a 30 degree bevel and sometimes a 20 degree bevel. My spindle gouges all have swept back wings like the Ellsworth or Irish grind and I find they work best for me. Does that mean it is right for you, not unless it works for you as well as it works for me.

I've gone to the Utah Woodturning Symposium every years since 1997, attended a number of the AAW annual symposiums, and many other local symposiums and special demonstrations by well known turners. Everyone of the demonstrators use a slightly different grind on their tools or slightly different tools. So whoever you take a class from will tell you what is best, because that is what they use and it works for them.

Good luck with your search for the perfect grind, when you find it it will be what works for you. Then you can say this is the only grind that should be used.

Fred Holder

charlie b wrote:

Reply to
Fred Holder

any shape that works for you is good. any shape that does not work is bad. Remember that with a hand held tool (as opposed to a machine tool), you will quickly learn to adjust the tool presentation to find the sweet spot and it will cut as well as it is going to - hollow versus not hollow won't matter (honest) - having a seriously wrong shape will matter (it's really hard to hollow a bowl with a spindle gouge - I have the dent in my ceiling due to that discovery) - as long as the tool makes curly shavings and not dust, it's cutting - dont' sweat it.

big snip ----------

Reply to
William Noble

Obviously it's in the grind, not the name. "Spindle" gouges with fingernails are just shallow-grind "bowl" gouges, and cut the same way. No fingernail takes a lot of patience, ask the guy who had no other back when.

Even "bowl" gouges aren't ground the way they were when I began, and you'd hardly recognize them as the functional descendant of the "long and strong" - a name I prefer - gouges that reached inside in the past.

That's where the real babble begins, narrowing and renaming like so many government agencies to try and convince the unknowing that there's really only one tool for one job like in machine shops.

This is (mostly) hand work, as Bill says. Less your supercontrolled and laser guided hollowing rigs, that is.

Reply to
George

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