Stronghold chuck jaws, whats wrong with this picture.

Oh Gad Arch, not again!

Gorgeous bowl bottoms that hide all evidence of how they were made are without which there is nothing. They are so admired and add so much to the beauty of turned wood bowls as do the backs or bottoms of a Vermeer painting, a Revere pitcher, A Mozart symphony, a Wallace spoon, a Wedgewood cup, or a Rodin sculpture. Those lazy artists had no pride of back or bottom. Little wonder their works are worthless today. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

You've made my morning a little brighter and added a lil' culture to the group today, Arch..

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

damned right!!!

but what's that got to do with bowls??

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

So if you could get away with producing and selling what even you consider to be an inferior product ....you would??? Hmmm I wouldn't Bill......... I think the art/craft deserves the BEST product that one can produce......... Sadly others in this thread very obviously disagree with me.....

A year or so ago there was a post about incorporating the dove-tail recess into the design of the bowl. Someone mentioned they glue a penny of the current year into the recess. Perhaps a quarter would provide a better fit. The turner would then see what year the piece was made as would the customer while at the same time increasing the value of the bowl.

-Kevin

Since my Stronghold #2 jaws require about 2 3/8" minimum recess ( I usually do a little bigger so I can measure the bottom depth with calipers between the jaws) I might need an as-yet undeveloped $5 or $10 coin.

-Kevin

Perhaps a Euro would be a better choice... :o)

I'd have to double the price!

I did put our state quarter in some the first year of issue.

It's a nice touch on a salad set given as a wedding present.

On Fri, 13 May 2005 12:11:57 -0700, Kevin wrote (in message ):

LOL! am i the only one who read this as a jab?

Honi soit qui mal y pense

Jolly good showing ol' bean. Hereby promoted to the prestigious rank of COC 1st Class, with all rights, privileges and honors incumbent upon that office.

Congratulations!

...Kevin

Nope, not what I said.

The customer is not always right ... but he -is- always the customer. What the customer wants and is willing to pay for is what determines the "BEST product that one can produce" not some arbitrary distinction that we might care to make. When I make something for my own use, I am the customer and I make whatever it is to my own specs.

But consider this.

For myself, I will leave a jig unfinished. For a customer, I would make certain that it had a smooth protective coating on it. Which is better? Neither ... both meet the customers expectations. Both are cost effective (I would have to charge a customer for labor plus actual material costs + markup, so their jig needs to perform somewhat better in order for them to recover their costs, but the costs of material for most jigs is negligible and I can make my own jigs in 'downtime' so a jig with less invested in it makes more sense for my own use.) Both would have acceptable use lives and perform acceptably during that time. When I am making something like that for a customer, time spent applying a finish goes into the price and represents income. When I am making a jig for myself, time spent finishing is (usually) a cost because I could be using the time spent finishing to make whatever that jig is designed to make.

When I make something for someone else to use I am no longer the customer, they are. If it is within my ability to produce a design and within their ability to pay for it, the customer can have any design their little 'ol hearts desire.

I have no (zero!) desire to force the customer to see design 'my way' and every desire to see it through the customers eyes so as to make an effective appeal to their mind, hearts and wallets. Especially the latter. Cash is the sincerest form of flattery.

You seem to be arguing against giving the customer what they want and in favor of forcing the customer to accept your vision. There isn't any way that this is a correct perspective and I cannot accept it as my own viewpoint. I'm not even going to try. (Psalms 19:13)

In the paragraph of mine quoted above, what I proposed was a marketing test which could provide direct guidance as to the relevancy (to the customer) of the bowl bottom. My preference for a finished bowl bottom is just that, a preference. There is nothing inherently superior about either a fancifully finished bottom or a well-done dovetail recess. The true function of the bowl bottom is to support the weight of the bowl on a surface in a reasonably stable fashion. And that goal is often missed in some of the higher priced, but incredibly top-heavy, 'bowl' designs. Yet, according to your definition, they are better designed and manufactured than mine because their bottoms are finished. Perhaps ... but mine will hold your soup until it cools enough to eat.

They don't work as bowls and they definitely don't meet the requirements of a vase ... which needs to be stable with its load higher than the rim.

Although I pay close attention to the aesthetics of a piece, I am also considering that once it leaves my hands I have no control over its fate. To that end, I try to make it so that it is also useful for ordinary purposes. I -really- don't want anyone slapping a steaming load of mashed potatoes in one of my bowls, leaving it out for hours and then putting bowl and all into the refrigerator overnight only to nuke it, bowl and all, in a couple of days. I am very explicit that doing this kills any hope that the customer might have that I will bail them out if their bowl breaks. I don't offer any warranty at all. Any replacing I do requires the customer to convince me that the bowl was scrap when it left my hands.

However, I do try to accommodate a certain amount of use & misuse by my choice of design and materials. This accommodation is not contingent on removal of a dovetail on the bottom of the bowl.

I DO produce the very best I am able. But -I- will be the one to determine what that is, not anyone else. My customers, not you, will tell me whether I have gotten things right or not.

If you want to tell me how to make what, there is a mechanism for that already in place -- but Usenet is not that mechanism.

Here's how that works. I have a nice selection of bowls and goblets available starting at $60. With and without dovetails. Money talks. Everything else walks.

Bill

Bill, Very well said! robo hippy

Bill C. wrote:

May 2005

Bill.........

disagree with

better?

effective

negligible

marketing test

customer)

manufactured

requirements of

putting bowl

Well you certainly cured my insomnia...............ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz (Psalms 4003:7009 or thereabouts) :-)

nope, just some brass discs with your name on 'em.. might be pretty cool..

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Neill, I enjoyed your album very much. You all do remember Neill? He started this thread many posts ago. So moving right along toward putting it in the Guinness book as rcw's longest thread:

We've about exhausted discussing a bowl's nether parts, so it's time to 'troll for tops'. :) I liked Neill's treatment of the orifices on his no. 2, 9 and 14 hollow forms. Clearly there is a place for, as well as not for adding collars to closed forms. The same with gossamer walls. Forget the bottoms.

When and when not to add collars to closed forms? To enhance a bland timber? To strengthen an opening? Easier to make a wide opening and add a narrow collar? An artful addition? A jarring discontinuity? Intimations of artistic virtuosity? Indications of technical expertise? It's what you have always done....or not done and turners you admire do and don't do.

Whatever, how and when do you ladies and gentlemen consider adding collars?

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

Glad to have been of service. I included the scripture to show the foundation for my opposition. If you haven't looked it up yet, you might want to someday.

Bill

Not a chance Bill.... As soon as I saw that reference I stopped reading. I am sure there is a religious newsgroup. This is not it.......

On Mon, 16 May 2005 8:30:43 -0700, Arch wrote (in message ):

thank you Arch, im glad you enjoyed the pics. i am amazed that this thread is still going. i never expected it to turn into a controversy over turning techniques.... and another controversy over finishing details, and all the other "thread drifts" along the way. its funny too that after all of this, some of my original questions were never really answered. so now we want to talk about collars? ok thats fine with me. the reasons why i have never added collars are pretty simple. a lot of my inspiration for enclosed forms comes from places other than the modern woodturning world. some of these would include potters, glass blowers, gourds & squashes, fruit, nuts & seed pods, traditional or primitive functional storage vessels in wood, clay, metal, basketry, etc. these forms tend to be of one material from foot to orifice. my own personal preference is more toward pure forms and flowing curves. i do admire some of the collared pieces i have seen. for me though unless it is done really well a collar does often seem like a "jarring discontinuity"