Useless musings before falling asleep

Or, 'None Dare Call It Crap'.

I was a bit abrupt and, perhaps, obtuse in my initial reply. What he meant to say was ... How many reproductions of the same piece can really be called 'Art' - that's art with a Big A? Maloof's rocking chairs, for example. Yes, I like them. Yes, they have a graceful form. But if you've seen one, you've pretty much seen them all. Same with Olsonik candlesticks. How many of them did he make? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Was the last one 'Art'? They either all look the same, or I have only seen a photo of the same pair over and over again.

I once worked for a company whose motto was "If you find a gold mine, work the hell out of it." Seems that too many of the Revered Ones are working the hell out of gold mines - and more power to them. But eventually it is not 'Art', it is just Reproduction. To me, 'Art' implies change and growth.

Thanks Lobby, After the first fifty "one-offs" maybe the Masters' Art is "self plagiration" or "Fine Craft". Maybe both are expensive "reproductions" or variations on a familiar theme?

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

Thank you for bringing up this tangent to Arch's post, Lobby Doss (BTW, what does Lobby Dosser refer to?).

I have considered this same observation myself and have drawn the conclusion that those who keep producing the same items (even with some variation) year after year are merely doing production work - it may be limited, but it's still just making the same item over and over.

How many variations did Michaelangelo make of David? I'm only aware of one. Who has seen The Last Supper #2, The Last Supper #3, #4, etc? Not me, anyway.

Here we go again with Art vs. Craft... I believe much of what we see in today's "art" is Artistic Craft as opposed to that in the vein of Master's Art.

I'm not arguing--just stirring the pot: If an "artist" makes an engraving, or draws on a lithography stone, and then he, or some technicians pull a hundred numbered prints, is only the original to be considered art? A turner, essentially copying his own work, over and over again, is still putting as much of himself into the work as a printmaker. Maybe more, because no two pieces of wood are identical, nor are any two shapes made by hand.

I feel that something intangible enters the work from the hands of the craftsman or artist, and it is still there when the piece sits on someone's mantle. (This is as close as I come to being religious.)

Worse, s/he snaps a picture whose negative is handed to a lab which produces prints which s/he sells. Then s/he says that woodturners and carvers are really only "crafts" people who don't belong in a fine art show.

No two turnings are ever the same. Most differ by more than do two paintings of water lilies, much less two prints.

I have one more bowl to rough before I start dinner. Won't look a lot like the one I just finished before this pee and tea break, either.

Owen,

A bunch of years ago, I was most fortunate to go on a tour through Italy. I went to Florence and saw the David. If my memory serves me, Michaelangelo made more than one of some of his sculptures until he got it the way he wanted it. I know in the David museum, there was at least one Pieta that was not the one in St. Peter's. I think the tour guide said there was more than one David too.

By the way, I do agree with your post. An original idea is singular. Multiple "same" expressions, fade into reproduction. I guess the real question is, how much of the simialr piece has to be original for the piece to be considered another original piece?

Arch,

My brother is a priest. I still call him "Dave". He may be a priest, but he's not my priest. He is my LITTLE brother - the one I used to pound on when I was a kid.

Joe Fleming - San Diego

Been thinking about it since last night. What defines 'Art'? One answer is people with more money than sense - Buyers of Warhol's 'works', for example. Another answer is critics - people with more 'mouth' than sense.

What's yours?

Lobby Dosser was a cartoon character in Scotland when I was a child. Lobby is typically a hallway and dossing is bedding down - so Lobby Dosser is one who beds down in hallways.

I adopted the original spelling, though the name would be pronounced Low-bee no matter how spelled.

I used to own a small print shop. There was also a very well known print shop in town. The well known shop with a big reputation could charge twice as much as we could for the same project and get the work. And you know what? We worked together and when they got too busy we actually printed those projects for them. Yep. Fame does bring bigger prices and maybe justly so. They have earned the reputation over years through quality, advertising, and PR. Us unknowns haven't yet earned it. That's the way it is and always will be. Earl

I think this is a really valid point, especially as it pertains to woodworking. Especially in woodturning. How many ways can you turn wood round, or out of round? How many pieces of wonderful wood are found and finished that would have been a jaw dropper in the day of Ellsworth (early 80s) and are now simply considered "nice work"?

Arch brought up an excellent point some time back in his musings. To paraphrase, "is it just me or is anyone else tired of turning bowls?" You bet Arch. And people are tired of looking at our stuff, too. To prove that out, simply look at the prices of really well turned out pieces and what they actually sell for.

I make more money selling mushrooms and oil lamps as an impulse buys than I do with a really nice bowl. They are clever, not too artistic. But people like them. A lot.

People's perception of what we do has been dulled by the glut of people that are turning. Some are good, some are great, and some are not so good. How many know the difference?

I turn all kinds of things on the lathe, all kinds of projects and I look at my woodturning/shop time as a trip to Dr. Frankensteins lab. I am a pretty fair turner, good enough to successfully teach. Better turner than some, not as good as others.

Our work (EXCEPT in our own community) has become so commonplace that I am beginning to think that wood turned art does not exist at all. So in the vein of Arch's opriginal premise, why would I buy the PRODUCT of an turner for $$$$ when I could get the same PRODUCT for $$, maybe of better quality?

Like the Maloof style chairs (not his personally) and the 500 chair makers out there copying them, I am seeing woodturned pieces slowly lose their value and worse, the interest in them as the sheer volume of things turned round, and turned round well is growing geometrically every day.

It will get even more this way. According to my local Woodcraft, woodturning is the fastest growning segment of woodworking today, and has been for the last 2 years.

For me, I have a small remodeling company that requires a great deal of my time. To put a point on this long winded dissertation, I do not have the time to compete with the retired guys in my club that have all damn day to turn, and some turn out a 3 - 4 nice pieces a week, every damn week. And half out club is retirees.

So the flood will continue, and soon all of our clients will be able to get "aristic" grade work for minimum wage prices.

Robert

====>A lobby dosser is the Scottish equivalent of our homeless types who see all manner of venues to sleep during the night, e.g., lobbies of buildings. More at:

Leif

HEY, I resemble that fact! :o)

Robert,

Interesting points. I find myself heading toward your description. The work that you see on WOW goes WAY beyond round bowls, etc. but then it's a lot of carving also, even cutting and reassembling. Certainly fine for art but not woodturning in the strict sense and not the beauty of wood in the pure sense since much is painted or dyed also.

So, has that direction/evolution happened from boredom with the simple round or is it completely a different matter? Still lifes and statues are reproductions of reality until you move to "modern art" - impressionistic. That seemed to happen from boredom with the "sameness" of existing art.

TomNie

I don't doubt it .

At the National Gallery in London there are DaVinci "cartoons" (charcoal sketches) of works hanging by the finished piece. I think studies and prototypes are very different from self-reproductions.

However, it does illustrate that true master does not simply create off the finger tips through divine inspiration. Even for them, it is, in part, an engineering (iterative, trial, error, exhume, dissect) exercise.

-Steve

Hi Chuck. The definition probably depends on who you ask. Oh no!.. not Madame Cambium! :) She knows that I'm defined in the eye of the beholder. :) Slainte.

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

My question in all of this is, What defines "Arch?"

Tom,

I'm certain that all teh carving, coloring, piercing, burning and cutting is good for our craft. What it means to me is that people are searching for new ways to express themselves. As you implied, there are just so many different bowls to turn. There are still boundless ways for us to form wood into new expressions.

Joe Fleming - San Diego

Thanks All,

Your differing yet thoughtful comments brightened a ho-hum and overworked subject. I fully agree with each of you. :)

So I'll take Leo's spurtle and keep stirring his pot (it's probably unique, laser thin and sanded to1000). Forgetting personality & promotion, do any of you think a fine new turner can develop a recognizable style, signature piece or wide reputation with unadorned turnings as was accomplished with form & finish alone in the past?

And another thing. Didja ever notice that often the best wood artists seem to be interested more in technique than artistic creativity, and they don't seem particularly impressed with the work of others, except when judging or being judged? :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter