Long & Wrong musings of a miserable COC (read at your own risk)

Arch: Does yer guid-wife know you are dounsittin in the daurklins a-weening thae kynd o" thoughts. I tell you, let the sun hide in FL and the people start thinking these strange thoughts! *G*

Leif

Arch:

Delightful post.

I had the good fortune to be present at the Arrowmont Conference "Woodturning-Vision and Concept" where, among other things, AAW was essentially founded. I recall someone asking Del Stubbs about what angle he used to grind a specific tool (the memory fails as to which tool). His answer was, "Well, 90 won't work, you have to have an edge". That was, I believe before powdered metal was invented. Or at least formed into gouges

Kip Powers Rogers, AR

Well Arch, you are playing my tune. When I started professional woodworking, I had the sad misconception that there was a tool for every job, and a job for every tool. Working around some of the guys I was around, they wouldn't even try certain tasks without EXACTLY the right tool.

After a period on the job, I was put with the best, most experienced carpenter on the job. He had amazingly few tools compared to the guys that worked under him, but he always turned out better work. He always stayed pissed off at the guys that worked under him claiming that they needed every damn tool in the store to do the most simple things. He always stressed to me to learn to use the tools you have, and to never think of the tools as being good for only one thing.

I worked for a general contractor, so we did all manner of woodoworking on restaurants. We set forms, did the framing, put on the roof, framed and sheetrocked the insides, hung fixtures, made and hung door units, and on and on. We had no radial saws, no table saws, and no other statinary tools. And no, they weren't big prefab packages, either.

We even used to make cabinets with 1X2 rails and stile on the carcass and half lap doors on site. We used circular saws, we had one router (for all of us) a few sanders and a couple of belt sanders. We didn't have nailguns, or anything like them.

Now 30 years later, I have been trying to teach as I was taught, and have just about given up. I am lucky if someone knows how to do something other than a few basic things, much less how to do the same thing with any kind of different tools. They need the EXACT tool they know about, and can only do certain operations one way.

I stunned one of the guys that works for me because I fit a door in an existing jamb that was out of plumb as well as out of level. Can't be done, he said. No way. In his estimation the frame had to come out of the brick wall and a new complete door unit needed to be installed. Well, I did it the way I learned, and mortised the hinges with a chisel to match the existing mortises in the jamb after measureing them off, carefully marked the door to fit the opening, and scribed cut all three remaining edges with my circular saw (with one of those kick ass red Freud blades) with the edge opposite the hinges cut in 5 degrees. I sanded and rounded edges of the door to finish the installation.

He was so stunned he couldn't believe it. Then of all things, he decided that I did it just to show off. Now how is that for a way to compensate for a lack of imagination and skill? Sadly, with the people that are going into the trades these days, he is more of the norm than the exception. He finally settled on the fact that the reason I knew how to do that was because I am "an old dude". He is 32, BTW.

I see a lot of him in our woodturning group. Some of the guys I really try to encourage to think out of the box. Grind your tools the way you want them, turn the wood you want to turn (if is is plentiful and easy to turn, it can't really be good, can it?) and put the finishes on it you want.

And while I am at it here, I am pretty damn sick and tired of all the baloney going on with the design experts. The self appointed design experts want everything to look like the forms they see in all the magazines and the stuff they see at Pier One or Pottery Barn (or Target for that matter). My most common peeve? "Well, that looks a little thick in through there... I wonder if you could have made the foot a little smaller..."

Worse? "I dunno... I'm just a little uncomfortable with the way you handle the curve in through here... " Uncomfortable? Probably it's his hemmorhoids, nothing else.

And who made all those rules up? Yet they are now the standards for hollow vessels. Nothing but ginger jars.

Large bowls/platters need to have sidwalls no thicker than 1/4". Smaller ones, 3/16 to 1/8". Anything else is greeted with a tolerant, polite smile, and a patient pat on the head while receiving the encouragements of "keep after it!" and "like the wood" and "I think you are getting the hang of it!".

Someone in the group passed around a large burly piece of "found" wood he turned, and since it was so gnarly and fissured, he decided to make it a massive piece. It wound up almost round (no foot!) at about 10 inches in diameter with a large natural opening and the walls about 3/4 inch thick. It was gorgeous, just stunning.

I am not kiddin' here... half the club was confused with this as this guy always turns to the club norm. They looked at it, teased him about not finishing his hollowing, and wondered if it was a club for burglars. He told me later that night he never realized how unimaginative our little club had actually become. As one of the clubs most respected turners, I wonder how they would feel if they knew that his "hollowing system" is a 1" piece of plumbing pip with a slot cut into it to hold the old car spring he has welded into it to make a 48" scraper...

Robert

Well, Robert, you're both playing my siren song. I started (unprofessionally) as a child with a handsaw, a manual coping saw, hacksaw, various screwdrivers, and later, a jigsaw and circular saw. Built many useful items with just those implements of destruction. Never used a router until my 20s'.

A product of modern educational/media institutions...

That's what I do. Quit bothering to show most of it to anyone else.

Armchair quarterbacking, pissing contests, and overt jealousy.

A while back, a fellow requested for information on building an aquarium stand, and everyone started poo-pooing the simple design submitted by one respondent which used 2x4 framing. OP never said he wanted furniture made of rosewood, or that it should cost $600 in materials, or require $3000 worth of tools to build. Just wanted a stand that wouldn't fall down/apart like the particle board crap they sell at the pet store.

I can tell you from experience that a 2x4 stand for a 75 gallon tank can be built from construction lumber and some 3/8" cabinet plywood for less than $50 in materials, looks pretty darned good, and will last 20+ years while holding up over 600 pounds of load. Just avoid using veneer cores for the framing... (I have one - built with a circular saw, a chisel, and a pencil - over 20 years ago.)

While it might be nice to have a Brazilian Mahogany stand that cost well over $800 for the wood alone, I really don't feel the need....

I hear you, Loud And Clear. I make things the way I want them to be, not some predefined collective mantra of how they *should* be...

What good is a delicate vase with a tiny foot that topples over when a few dried flowers are tossed into it? Or a bowl so thin that the slightest amount of mishandling causes it to shatter or crack?

I create items based upon real world usefulness and personal appeal. I've got enough dust collecting crap sitting around as it is. With possible exception of a particularly interesting piece of natural burl or figured wood which relegates the resulting piece into the dust collecting "art" category, I'm more inclined to create items which can be used, handled, and enjoyed.

I spent 20 hours creating a segmented bowl and applying 10 coats of finish, sanding in between every coat. When completed, I dumped a bag of hot popcorn into it and watched a movie. I could feel the curves and the smoothness of the finish. The fine detail that only shows in close proximity, and from different angles. It's walls are a whopping

3/8" thick, and by golly, that's how I designed it. To Be Used.

Ever seen a snobby group of club patrons touring a new artist's exhibition? Generally a financially motivated Leader, and a group of Sheep. Or would they more accurately be referred to as "Parrots"...

One of the many reasons I'm not a "joiner"...

Man, that all sounds so negative and anti-social. Oh, well... ;-)

FWIW,

Greg G.

"Why" is an endlessly-debatable philosophical question. "How" can have the same answer for everyone. Style and substance, sizzle and steak, faith and science.

Yes, there are a lot of turners out there who have never asked how, because they have had some accidental success, and attribute it to their natural talent and good looks. Easy to recognize. They write a book, make a DVD or create a "signature" piece and act as if it and they were the acme of the craft. Have to excuse them for thinking that a bevel angle of X made on the most expensive of grinders is the only one that cuts. Truth is, if you question them, it's usually all they know. More's the pity. They also tend to think it's all there is, because they've never given any other mode or method a thought. They'll continue to parrot rules of dumb like 10% of diameter, a year per inch, don't skip a grit (whatever _that_ means), cut the bottom the same thickness as the sides or it'll crack and only a "bowl" gouge can cut a bowl.

Since they haven't ever asked how, they fall easy prey to others like them who trumpet their own accidental success as _the_ way. The number of procedures out there to let the water out of wood is a great example. Doesn't take long to determine that they're all the same in one essential - controlling the rate of loss by controlling the relative humidity - yet turners soak and seal and boil and treat with all manner of magic potions, then, since they haven't _asked_ how, claim that the reason for their success is something which has nothing to do with controlling loss. The "why" is used rather than the how - it's because turner Y says so.

Merchants are pretty happy to have these kind of people around, too. They buy a lot of things to help their turning, hoping that cents will substitute for sense. Nothing so uncommon as common sense or common knowledge when it's something for which we have a passion.

It's a great feeling to have faith and passion, and it's also a lot less effort than asking and discovering how things take place. The faithful are convinced they can receive instant gratification from possessing the right tool or coating. Not like those who keep asking how in search of the GUT (Grand Unifying Theory) of turning. The one thing they're convinced of is that there's more to learn.

For instance, has anyone yet figured out why holding a lathe to the floor with a weight is different than holding it to the floor with bolts? I already know why it's not done - famous people say not to.

I've gone the 'prescribed' method a few times. This involved sharpening my scraper and gouge as well as honing the latter every few cuts. On the sanding went all the way to 800 not skipping a grit. I usually stop around

320. Then applied Watco exactly per instructions followed up with 5 or 6 applications of shellac. The bowls being made were for the wife and must admit they came out very well, i.e. smooth as a baby's backside. Most if not all of the other bowls I take to 320 and well there is a noticeable difference but enough to justify the extra work, hmm, only if making a piece for a loved one.

Given some of the punky wood I have to work with now, sharp is the only way I can get even a halfway decent cut.

On my truck, I kinda like having the tach as I tend to keep it under 2500 for almost all driving. On the lathe, your observation is spot in. The speed is set where I am comfortable. Reminds me of speed limit signs in western Kansas in the pre 55mph days - Drive at a safe and prudent speed.

I never had a lseeon. I learned from reading this group and several books. Perhaps this lack of lessons shows in my work.

I can take a lack of imagination from some folks in the area of woodworking. In fairness, many in my woodturning club are retired from careers or businesses after many years of toiling at essentially the same job. In their field, they may have been brilliant, innovative, and imaginative. In a new endeavor they are cautious, thoughtful, and follow the rules probably like some did when they were employed.

But I can't abide a snob. I don't like it when people don't respect each other (ahhh... starting to show my age here) and I feel like I need to get a hold of their necks when they do. Just because you learn to do a few good tricks and techniques in woodturning doesn't make you a respected, and certainly doesn't make you an expert. And it certainly doesn't allow you to put yourself up on a pedestal. Like most real pros, the more you know about what you are doing, the more you realize how much more there is that you don't know about what you are doing.

I have said this before on this forum and it is certainly true of most clubs; since almost none of us are making a living woodturning, why not just sit back and appreciate the differences? It's great to have goals and aspirations, but why should anyone have to feel that a piece I turned was inferior because it wasn't turned using the "proper" (read: accepted) techniques for design and implementation?

Robert

Great responses, All. Thanks for picking up and not leaving my post naked and for adding your personal and perceptive takes. How about some thoughtful disagreement or different takes. Anyone? Let me suggest three useful ways to test whether someone is braying or offering helpful advice from actual experience.

1. Ask a question that you know the answer. Good for surreptitious evaluation.
2. Ask why? After you separate the answer from the wadding, see if it turns out to be nothing more than a lame "because". Especially useful if "because" is rendered with Solomon's gravity and Alfred E. Neuman's wisdom.
3. Ask a question and note if the answer is preceded by "This is one way that seemed to work for me" or by "this is the way you should do it". Look for variations.

I often fail my own tests. Please post the personal 'truth tests' you use for RCW. An internet news group can use them. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

but boxing season is in "full swing" now, Arch...

It's a matter of taste and satisfaction, I think... and what finish is going on... Most folks stop at 180 or 220 if it's going to be stained, 320 or so for friction polish.... I might go to 600 for buffing if the wood is "right" for it..

Then, there are the flat work guys that will go way over 1,000 grit on their hand rubbed, glass-like finish... true case of "different strokes for different folks"??

Depends on the level of fetish... for my use, if it cuts good, it's the right angle.. *g*

A tach on a lathe seems silly to me... on a car, it's to show you the red line you went over too many times before you blew it up.. *g*

wholly agree there, Arch, as long as I can still worship at Bill Grumbine's shrine when a bowl occasionally comes out nice... *lol*

Mother nature does a good job of drying on her own... works for me..

no, not sorry, Arch... I'm just amazed that I replied to it...... Get your butt off the computer and go make shavings!!

Mac

very similar to bowlers... 2 kinds of (serious) bowlers, in my experience, the people who make the ball work under most conditions, and the "tool guy" of bowling that goes to the pro shop and buys a new ball, wrist support, shoe surface, magic potion, etc. every time they roll a bad game... *g*

When you see 2 people walk into a bowling alley, one with a bag and the other with a hand truck with 3 or 4 plastic ball holders, you can usually tell which is which.. Mac

Don't see any absolutes there, Derek. Of course, the bevel on my skew is about the same angle as the roughing gouge, about 1.25:1 of the thickness, except it's sharpened on both sides. That's because my roughing gouge skews across the wood. People who try to stuff the nose into spinning work would certainly benefit from limiting the bite. Personally I wouldn't use the tool that way at all.

Now my beading tool is sharpened at 1.5:1 or maybe even more. People who spin their wood faster'n I do would be well advised to sharpen a bit more blunt so the heat can be carried away better, though.

Sounds like this business of bevels depends on a lot of other things, doesn't it?

As to bodies, I'm constantly amazed that people disdain toolrest support and end up trying to lean the tool in and control it with small muscle. No wonder they get digs. Of course, that's _why_ I use different tools, my turning philosophy is outsmart not outmuscle.

SNIP..............

================== There's a lot more of us like that than you might think!

Ken Moon Webberville, TX.

OK, now you lost me here. So you are saying that you should post a question that is really bait, so you can see if someone else agrees with your assessment or ideas? Isn't this the kind of people we all want to avoid on both sides? It seems the OP would be one off those simpering weenies that has that one little piece of information that he covets that he feels makes him superior. Then if he disagrees withe the respondent, the one that asks the question can answer a post about woodturning in a thunderous, adamant and indignant response telling how stupid the respondent is? Do we not have more to do with our time than look for intentional shit stirring? And of all things... in woodturning where no one does anything the same way? We are back to the snobs of woodturning now... the know it alls. Should we keep a list in the FAQ of all that don't pass the test?

****************************** Trap laying OP: Uhhhh..... duh..... I ran out of water based poly and was wondering if I can put oil based poly on top of the coats I already put on. I was uhhhh.... told by .... uhhh.... my brother in law that you could.

Respondent: Well, you could, but you would have to sand it down to clear wood, seal it with XXXX, and then put XXXX on it and you should be fine.

Trap laying OP: LIAR!!!! FRAUD!!! GOTCHA!!! I have done that a million times and it never works!!! HAH!!

**********************************

I do most sincerely hope it never comes to that in this group. Really, no one makes anyone participate here. You know the old saying; opinions are like anuses - everyone has one. Take what you get here for what it is worth - an opinion.

turns out to be nothing more than a lame "because". Especially useful if "because" is rendered with Solomon's gravity and Alfred E. Neuman's wisdom.>3. Ask a question and note if the answer is preceded by "This is one way that seemed to work for me" or by "this is the way you should do it". Look for variations.

Top posted because I can...

Then there are those of us who are gadget prone and buy a lot of stuff at a time when we have more cents than sense. Some of us later find out we have less cents and manage to develop more sense.

As an old turner once said, "Put the shine on the wood..........." I agree with that, but within reason. I doubt most of us can tell the difference when we go past 400 grit.

Barry

WOW! Robert, I asked for disagreement, but this must be the mother of all misunderstandings. Lighten up.

My most respected teachers taught me by the Socratic method and naturally I taught my students the same way; ie. by asking instead of telling. I never felt insulted or 'trolled' and of course, I knew the prof. knew the answers. We never wanted to avoid these profs. On the contrary their classes and quiz sections were the liveliest and best attended of all.

I had assumed it would be acceptable to use questions as can openers for good discussion here. I hope my musings aren't considered "snobbish" or any of the bad things you mentioned about the kinds of questions you don't like. There has been many discussions on what should be contained in rcw threads. Consensus has always been that we are a diverse group and there's room for all of good will. Specific questions seeking helpful advice predominate, but humor, one liners occasional ads, essays, reviews etc. have been ok. I thought my 'can openers' were also.

Your response to my post was not as expected so I best stop here with the sincere hope that you misunderstood me or I misunderstood you, but if not there's nothing more to be said. Arch

Hi Arch,

When I first started selling my work, I used a lit magnifier to inspect the quality of my finish and noticed that I had visible sanding swirls even though I used the Beall system after my oil finish. The issue was that I stopped sanding at 320 grit.

Once I started going to 800 grit, I eliminated most swirls, cocobolo and qulted maple being the major exceptions. I started using Micro-Mesh, and have eliminated visible swirls in the problem woods.

As to why I do this, the display stands I use at shows put my work within

10" of (6)45W Halogen bulbs which are unmerciful with respect to sanding swirls. So I do this as part of my quality commitment to my customers.

George

Barry, Have to disagree with you and agree with George - and you don't have to use a lit magnifier. Placing pieces side by side with good lighting I can tell the difference and I love the added detail. Having said that I don't believe it's worth all the extra effort unless a very special piece.

TomNie