Wondering Why

"charlieb" wrote: (clip) I sometime get one of my

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I say go for it. If a 20 degree angle does the trick when you are holding a chisel, the wood won't know the difference if you take away everything but the edge and substitute a skew. As a rule, using a narrower angle results in a sharper cutting edge. The only down side is that the edge is not as durable--wears faster and breaks easier.

"Faster" and "easier" are relative terms. "Wear" should be a function of the feet per minute the edge experiences. Smaller diameter, fewer feet per minute, less wear, longer "edge life". As for breaking the edge - Ie - knocking off a chunk of it - is that really likely?

charlie b

Whether or not it is likely is going to be a function of how hard the edge is- as a rule of thumb, the harder steel gets, the more brittle it becomes. If the material is malleable enough, it will not chip off, but you do risk folding it. The skew should already be tempered enough to keep it from snapping off on you.

The other concern is heat- a thinner edge will friction heat much more quickly than one with more material behind it. While it is not likely to be much of a problem, it is possible to get the end of a tool tip hot enough to draw the temper from a chisel when turning- making the angle more acute makes this more likely. I've got a few things cherry-red when turning, but they were not suitable cutting materials (EMT comes to mind) that I've used to "prototype" different things before spending time making them out of good steel, and I was really hogging with them.

Those two things aside, I would not hesitate to try this out if I needed a skew that could do what you are describing. The difference in material is an issue, but probably not enough to outweigh the benefits of having the right tool for the job. Another option to consider is dedicating a couple of skews to this task, and grinding past the double bevel and starting fresh with a single bevel- this would let you get in those tight corners without making the angle steeper, but you would need two skews (a right hand and a left hand) to do the job. A quick search will turn up these profiles easily.

Another thing to keep in mind is that very little in the world is truly revolutionary- while we may now have gouges made of M2 and powdered metal, the odds that the tools have been radically redesigned to take advantage of the new material specs is fairly low. For most applications, engineering and design is built off what has come before it, and not that much effort is expended in pushing the newer materials to their limits (especially in something as apparently simple as a gouge or skew) They will stress-test the new product to make sure it does not fail in normal use, but it's unlikely any of the manufacturers did much as far as varying angles goes- especially considering that the end product will be ground over and over by the user. What may be pushing the limits for an old carbon steel gouge is likely to be nothing to a tool steel.

Give it a try- the worst thing that could happen is that you lose a piece, and need to regrind your skew. I would not seriously worry about a chunk of sharp metal flying off at you unless you hit a bit of hardened steel embedded in the wood- and you'd still need to worry about that with a regular grind on the tool. Most likely failure is that it will dull quickly or the cutting edge will bend. Neither one is the end of the world.

Bedans are fairly thick in section, IIRC. Sort of like mortising chisels. Longer bevel to guide for a greater included angle. I took the pointed scraper from my first turning set and ground it as a chisel. With a 3/16 section and a nearly 2:1 length to thickness ratio on the bevel, planes like a champ, reaches in between close beads, and sizes tenons beautifully. Longer the bevel, grabbier it can be, so don't undersell the tool, handle it firmly.

Turned a small project after dinner myself, and used the chisel for smoothing and beading. Ornament of spalted beech and cherry. Turned a 15 inch bowl in the wet morning, so the lathe went full spectrum.

"charlieb" wrote: "Faster" and "easier" are relative terms. "Wear" should be a function of the feet per minute the edge experiences. Smaller diameter, fewer feet per minute, less wear, longer "edge life". As for breaking the edge - Ie - knocking off a chunk of it - is that really likely? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Charlie, did you notice that I was recommending that you DO try the narrower grind? I mentioned wear and durability as an afterthought, and I thought it was clear that I do not consider them serious side-effects.

Of course I agree that wear is a function of surface speed. Are you familiar with the concept, "All other things being equal?" For the same surface speed, wear is faster for narrower tool angles. I am sure that with a narrower grind, you will be sharpening the tool oftener.

When I first started turning, many years ago, I purchased a lathe, but had no tools. At that time, I still had a blacksmith shop and I made my first set of tools from old coiled springs. It had been many years since I took highschool woodworking and turned a lamp on the lathe. I couldn't remember exactly how the tools were ground. My first skew had only one bevel and a fairly sharp angle. It did what you describe quite well. Then someone told me it was ground wrong and I ruined it by making two bevels. It sort of became uncontrollable, until I finally learned how to use it properly.

For the small things you are considering, a bevel angle of 20 degrees should work very well. If fact a skew with only one bevel should work well on small items.

Fred Holder

"Fred Holder" wrote: (clip) a skew with only one bevel should work well on small items. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Right. The only thing that changes between a single bevel and a double bevel* is the angle the tool handle makes to the lathe axis.

I'm confused, as usual. Ignoring the dictionary as we turners usually do, if a skew has a single bevel, but it takes two surfaces to form an edge what is the 'other' surface called? Shaft, I suppose. Changing the tilt of the tool and its application, which becomes the slanted surface? Do they change names to protect the innocent? :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

This would not be a consideration if using HSS.

The one thing in my mind that should not be underestimated, is the limited heatsink capacity of a thin narrow edge, that in itself will decrease the steels durability, other than that, and a harder to control tool, I see no reason not to go for it.

Have fun and take care Leo Van Der Loo

Gentlemen - I thank you. Having access to the knowledge and insights you all have acquired, and readily share, continues to amaze me.

I hope my responses to your replies wasn't taken as arguementative. I dilsike threads that devolve into spitting matches and thankfully they don't seem to happen in this group.

So recapping what I've learned

1. toughness vs hardness balancing act you want an edge that can take impact while remaining sharp

tough yields but won't break hard won't yield but will break

tough dulls faster than hard

1. unlike their predecessor - carbon steel - high speed steel and its successors will hold an edge longer, won't loose their temper with the heat generated by wood turning, but require a bit more "meat" in terms of included angle to compensate for reduced toughness.

1. single bevel skews will get you into tighter places than a double bevel skew - but you need a "left" and "right" single bevel skew to do beads and the like.

2. "standard bevel angles" ARE NOT SACRED

Item 3 is my paradox. I want to get into tight places. And I want to turn - dynamically - spontaneously - and that requires one tool that will "do it all". I don't want to have to stop to change tools and I don't want to have a bunch of tools under the lathe, buried in shavings. Of course there is no single turning tool that "does it all" - but for me - a curved edge skew comes darn close. I use it "long point" down or "long point" into a horizontal cut - most of the time. With it I can rough a square blank round, cut lines, V grooves, beads, a bead up against a vertical face, coves and even hollow with it.

Fortunately, Item 4 is my way out of my skew dilema. So I'll regrind by 1/2" skew to maybe 25 degrees and if that works but not quite - then 20 degrees.

But what about the other "standard angles" for other turning tools? How many of those are "tried and true" - for carbon steel tools - but aren't necessarily required for modern steels and steel treatments.

Why is The Ellsworth Grind siginificant enough a change to the "tried and true" grind to warrant bearing his name? I understand why turning tool manufacturers stick with the default "tried and true" - consumers shy away from things that are too far away from that with which they are familair. And then there are The Lawyers.

But woodturners are very creative lot - I can't think of another type of woodworking that has gone off in so many different directions - and has gone so far in a relatively short time. So why are we (I flatter myself by inclusion) saddle with tools that are based on a century old techology's constraints?

OK - so there's "lasers" and carbide "insert tools" - but how about innovative improvements to existing tools?

Let me use two woodworking hand tools companies - Lie Nielsen and Veritas. The former makes beautiful, very functional, hand planes - based on "tried and true" designs - but refined by the use of better materials and manufacturing tolerances. These planes are practically works of art - and they work very well. Their price tag however excludes most folks from owning - and benefitting - from their tools.

Veritas on the other hand, comes at tool making from a different perspective. THEY look at a "tried and true" design and question everything about the design of the "tried and true" tool - both from a functional stand point as well as from a user's perspective. Not only are they concerned with what's happening "where the rubber meets the road" (at the interface between tool and wood), but also look at the other end of the tool - where the user meets the tool. It's the User that's high on their design criterial list. "How comfortable is the grip? How flexible is the grip? How can the set up be made easier and more precise?"

And Veritas looks at common woodworking tools and comes up with innovative, yet simple improvements to "tried and true" tools - that are easily improved - if you start with considering what's needed and how the "tried and true" tool does what's needed. Example - a try square. Simple, straightforeward tool

- a straight edge for marking a straight line and a square corner. Will tell you if the intersection of two faces are square or not and lets you mark ONE face. BUT - you often need to mark BOTH faces, carrying a line from Face One onto Face Two. Solution - the Veritas Saddle Square. Costs about the same but makes it easier and more accurate to do.

So where's the turning tools "Veritas"?

ramble mode off

charlie b

But it's that "standard 30 degree included angle"

Used to sell left and right skews when I started turning. Traditional tool had that nice long bevel opposite the straight side.

Simple enough. Use what they used for centuries - a chisel. You can skew a perpendicular edge in the proper planing direction, and beads are cut with a flip. It's what I'm using.

Trusting that I won't get spit at here, I'll resume the ramble.

Could it be that in addition to the comfort of grandad's tools and the fear of lawyers, some 'tried and true' tool designs do not change as better materials become available because of rigidly dogmatic turning instructions that are repeated over and over in books, posts, demos, articles and club meetings.

No doubt that in many turning shops turners are grinding, fabricating and successfully trying even truer tools and techniques that take advantage of newer materials. Could it be that most don't see the light of day and remain untried by most of us because their owner feared being scoffed at or ignored by an unelected hierarchy?

I am not paranoid, but I am inconsistent, some say perverse. :) There may not be any unwritten rules propagated by an unelected hierarchy. Maybe every genuine improvement in tool design gets its day in court. That said, why am I thinking about posting an updated list of what I consider useless and unnecessary new tools and devices I find in catalogs? :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

One of my homemade goofing off tools is actually pretty good at this, but it is more of a scraper than a skew. If you've got any drill rod or spring steel laying around, try just grinding a steep "V" shape on the end, with the sides angled back from the top a little, and flatten the top. You can do all sorts of things with the sucker- I like it for hollowing, but I just finished using it to repair a cymbal for a guy at work who plays the drums in his off hours- the point worked great for cutting through bronze like it was nothing on my lathe. (The edge of the thing had cracked, and was flapping around, so I just removed the damaged area for him on the lathe. I also hand hammered it to retune it, but that's another story.)

No idea, it was just idle speculation based on what I've seen from a lot of years in manufacturing. To tell you the truth, it's been so long since I bought a turning tool, I couldn't even begin to tell you what the standard angles are!!!

There is also the matter of adjusting the machines for different grinds- if you know that the customer is going to be changing it (intentionally or otherwise) at home, there's not much incentive to change the setup.

There's the beauty of this *problem*. You already have everything you need to make whatever you want to try out- a grinder to make the profile, a lathe to make the handle, and some experience to guide you in the right direction. If you can forget about shiny, and worrying about whether or not your edge lasts as long as the guy next door's, you can have every tool you'll ever need right next to the lathe.

If only everything were that easy! A guy can't really just jump in and make himself a decent table saw with a couple of hand tools and an hour or two of spare time (Though that is technically *possible*, depending on what you've got to start with, it's not likely.) But he sure can make a gouge or a skew that will do the job at hand admirably without really breaking a sweat. You may not want to submit a picture of the thing for publication when it's done, but if it cuts the wood, that's what is important.

A couple of things I've discovered from screwing around with making turning tools-

Even if you can't, or just don't want to heat treat steel of whatever grade, it's still steel, and the wood is still wood. You're not getting all you could out of it, but even 1018 mild steel from the hardware store is capable of cutting wood, provided you touch up the edge frequently. No- it's certainly *not* the same as a really nice $200 gouge, but if you need a tool, and don't have $200, it's not a bad option at the end of the day! Heat treating is important for the long haul, but you can get the job done in the short term with all sorts of crazy stuff.

While it's not exactly the same profile as a *insert your brand here*, a piece of black iron pipe cut at a 45 degree angle on one end, and sharpened like a gouge, *is* a gouge. It's not very hard, and it won't hold an edge long, but it'll get you where you need to go.

Aside from the material that is unsuitable for cutting tools, like those above, there is all sorts of scrap material that *is* worthwhile. If you have a grinder, you can put an edge on it. If you have a torch and a bucket of water, you can harden it. If you have an anvil and a brazing torch or a small forge (some are just one hollowed out fire brick and a propane torch), you can forge it to shape.

Here's the short list of things to watch for that I've come up with, though I admit that I generally just buy new tool steel when I want something that I expect to last.

Old Files- grind them carefully to preserve the temper, and they're good to go. If you want to hammer them, they have to be worked really hot, or they will crack.

Truck axles- Lots of grinding here, if you got that route, but if you can hammer them out, that's a lot of tools.

Spring steel- either from a leaf spring on an old car, or just a big spring. In the latter case, you'll need to heat it with a torch or forge to straighten it. You don't need an anvil to do this if you have a vise and slip a pipe on one end of the spring to untwist it once it's hot.

Busted drill bits- The straight shank on the end is not too tough to fit into a wooden handle, and it's already hardened and tempered.

Used machine shop tooling- I've got a bucket of old punches, but anything that contacts the material being worked is likely to be hard enough to make a great cutting tool. I don't know how easy it is for most folks to get this, but if you are, or know, a machinist, it's worth looking in the trash and scrap bins every so often. I keep hoping they'll decide to toss the old brake dies at work one of these days, but I'm not holding my breath...

When in doubt, a good way to test for general suitability as a cutting tool is to take something that you know is hardened, like a punch or chisel, and *ring* the material in question. If it sounds like a bell, it'll make a good tool- if it sounds like you just whacked a hunk of lead with a 2 x 4, it's probably not worth your time.

Unfortunately, with the hordes of lawyers everywhere, I don't think a guy can rummage around in a junkyard anymore these days- but there are still an awful lot of opportunities for salvaging tool or high-carbon steel if you keep your eyes open. It doesn't have to be big, either- all you need is something large enough to make the edge you want. Once you have that, you can mount it to something else, and you're good to go.

"Arch" wrote: (clip) Could it be that most don't see the light of day and remain untried by most of us because their owner feared being scoffed at or ignored by an unelected hierarchy? (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Arch, I will wager that there are literally thousands of home made tools that work perfectly well, and don't match any standard design. Most turners are more interested in results, and couldn't be bothered publicizing or promoting a "design." They don't fear being ignored--they don't care. And, if you are being ignored, you can't be scoffed at.

Of course, that could be a factor, but there are an awful lot of *new and improved* turning toys in the catalogs. Usually, that seems to be a matter of just slapping a different celebrated turner's name on the same old stuff, but I haven't tried them all (or any of them, actually) so I can't say with certainly that they're mainly the same.

Probably a combination of both, depending on where they're at. I've largely given up on innovating anything at work, and keep most of my stuff to myself. There are any number of things that get in the way of new ideas ever seeing the light of day- from poor communication, to simple turf protection. Nobody's supervisor wants to let a guy one step below them come up with a good idea unless they can take all or part of the credit for it- it's a somewhat misanthropic view, but it's true enough.

One of the funnier examples of this that I recently was party to was when I was cutting a bunch of rectangles out of 1/4" plate on the laser cutter. At $100 an hour to run the laser, the little suckers cost over $1 each for parts that are probably actually worth less than

The point of that, if anyone missed it, is that he hadn't thought about the problem for even a moment until I mentioned it, and then blithely assumed he could steal the idea that is saving the company about $25,000 a year because he outranks me... (though not by much, and not for long...) Most of the time, that works out for the guy in the position of authority, and the guys on the floor just give up even bothering- why make someone else wealthy when it doesn't get you anywhere?

Because apart from the problems involving genuine improvements that come from the bottom up, there is pressure on those near the top of most companies' structures to constantly innovate. It's a rare person that can actually come up with a long string of good ideas, and so we get a whole lot of senseless junk along with the occasional real improvement. If Bob has a good idea one day, and gets labeled the "idea guy," he's going to be expected to come up with more, whether he has any or not. If he doesn't have any good ideas, he's just going to whip up some bad ones.

It's a natural function of how society, and more specifically capitalism, works. When the first guy who came up with the idea of sticking a laser pointer on a miter saw got a big bonus and a promotion, everyone else and his idiot cousin tries to come up with yet another thing you can stick a laser pointer on, until you end up with a tape measure with a laser on it for precision hook placement. And the marketing departments love it- after all, a cheap laser pointer is not only apparently more "modern" than most things, but it doesn't necessarily raise prices the way a real improvement like using cast iron handwheels rather than plastic, or adding some other well-designed and manufactured feature that might actually be more useful than novelty.

I'm not really grousing that much about it- it's just my observation on the subject. I don't see that there is anything that is going to change the status quo regarding this anytime soon- that's why I spend so much time and energy just learning to make the things I really want and need myself. Then, I don't have to care whether or not company A takes away all the metal in a tool, and decides to compensate by adding a beeper, a laser, and a bigger battery.

And of course, technology marches onward whether anyone likes it or not- it could well be that today's junk is simply the newborn great innovation that hasn't had all the kinks worked out yet. Time will tell, like it always does.

"Prometheus" wrote: (clip) There are any number of things that get in the way of new ideas ever seeing the light of day- from poor communication, to simple turf protection. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It may not always be true, but it is true too much of the time. I understand the Japanese have it all over America on that score. Their management system encourages innovation and creative input from all levels in the production process.

Top Ten List of ways to discourage innovation:

It's no coincidence that the closest advisors to royalty in the turbulent middle ages were either physically or ecclesiastically eunuchs. That way they couldn't father a dynastic hopeful.

In a bureaucracy position protection comes from employment of mental eunuchs.

Anyone who puts a different angle on the grind or a longer/shorter fingernail is innovating, they're just letting someone else do the metallurgy and the handle. Tough part comes when they admit that they use a certain tool to do a job counter to convention masquerading as wisdom....