Blackwork: backstitch or Holbein?

Maybe it's one of those cases where two people use different terms for the same stitch. The Holbein stitch, or the double-running stitch, is named after a master stitcher of blackwork (Hans Holbein). It's also known as "line stitch" "stroke stitch" "square stitch" "two-sided line stitch" "two-sided stroke stitch" and the "Romanian Stitch".

Back stitch, on the other hand, is a more general term for several different types of stitches, including the Holbein stitch.

If your project is going to be reversible, than a carefully executed Holbein stitch is perfect (some not so carefully executed stitches end up looking - I dunno how to describe it - sloppy? Choppy?) If it's not going to be reversible the "standard" backstitch (where each stitch is completed before going onto the next and the needle is always pushed

*down* into the hole that already has a thread in it and not ever up into a used hole) gives a more even and full appearance to the stitching. It won't be quite as segmented - it will look more like a whole line and not one made up many pieces.

For anyone interested in BW, I highly recommend the book "Blackwork" by Mary Gostelow (softback ISBN 0-486-40178-2) and anything by the Skinner Sisters.

Hope I made a little sense. :-)

Tara

Sara wrote:

Thanks for you input! Yes, that's what I meant, standard backstitch. You're probably right, it could offer more coverage. I just like the fact that Holbein is reversible and hides thread ends. I always make sure to go through the stitch that is already in place when I go back along the line so I usually don't have any trouble with the lines looking discontinuous.

um I believe Hans Holbein was a painter and it is from his paintings of famous persons wearing blackwork on their garments from whence it gets it name. ???? four sided stitch is the same as holbein stitch??? UM..... I find that backstitch shows through dark fabrics when I am working white on say deep rose as well as when I work in black on light linen. It is especially noticeable when moving from row to row or when doing side journeys in some designs. Ruby>

He was a painter - but he was also responsible for designing robes, buttons, linens, and other household goods.

My term "master stitcher" was a boo-boo - I'm too used to writing "stitch" on this list. He was a "master artist" - because it was not just because of his paintings but because of his designs that the stitch took on his name. Holbein (the Younger) was meticulous in reproducing the blackwork of clothing in his paintings. Thanks to him we have a fabulous collections of work recorded.

In addition, in part because of blackwork, another fashion trend was started - large puffy sleeves and over-clothes that had slashes built into them to show off the sleeves. The cuffs also became long and exaggerated. It was a status symbol to have this delicate stitch adorning the clothing so efforts were made to not only show it off but to give over even more of the clothing to the stitch. The more you had, the more money you must have to A) pay someone to make this for you or B) your wife daughter/mother/etc. had so much leisure time due to dependence on servants that she could stitch it for you. Either way - it meant you must be from a higher social order.

The square stitch is just that - a series of squares put together. It's not the same as the Holbein stitch.

Yes, the stitching will show through if journeying - so it's best, but more tedious - to close off the stitch before starting another section. In the "old days" blackwork on clothing would often be soooo heavy that journeying wouldn't be a problem. Today, we tend to do smaller amounts of blackwork - such as in samplers. So journeying becomes less desirable.

Tara

I have a slightly different "take" on these two stitches. I call them "out and return", and "floss moving". I use them in no particular order, depending on how I am following the pattern. If I want the floss to move to another section of pattern, I use "floss moving". On the other hand, if I want to do a section, and then be ready to start at the same place again, I use "out and return". Generally speaking, I know what is happening at the back of the work while I am concentrating on the front, so I dont need to worry about it. HTH.

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

Never heard it called floss moving,side journey is the term I am familiar with in which one does the out and return. Ruby PS I must not be reading the latest books on the subject as this message thread on Blackwork seems to take great license with terms and facts. Has someone rewritten the history and terminology lately??

Dunno - the book I have is Blackwork by Mary Gostelow. I love it because it traces blackwork through at least the last 500 years (it lists the alternate names for the stitches in my first reply post). I have read many many books on medieval history (mostly biographies) and they all tie in together.

Tara

I obviously must read Mary Gostelow again. And definitely read more on that Holbein guy. ruby

In such a case of many books that tie together , you better have a good look at their sources ,,, probably all the sourcesor most are the same ,,,,So you only got people repreating each other. In which case you maybe should read Other kind of books as well , old pattern books Archeology , Art History etc,,, Other books may have more information about the subject. mirjam

That's what I'm doing. :-) I'm not always very clear when I'm typing as I'm a bit "hyper" - especially late at night. My brain is going faster than my fingers! My reading takes me down many different roads. One book leads me into another. Reading a biography of Henry the VIII will lead me to Elizabeth I which leads me to Mary Queen of Scots which leads me to Catherine de Medici, etc. etc. During these travels I come across events in history I have to read about - not just the famous people. You can't read about life in Medieval times without learning about the plague. I just finished a book on plague in Medieval Europe and how it affected the social structure. I ended up on this path via the study of gravestone motifs. This stemmed from my study of Mourning Samplers. Go figure. EVERYTHING is connected somehow. Or, maybe, everything is *just* connected to stitching!

In addition, my sister is an artist/art historian. My brother has many liberal arts degrees (which means he delivers food to people's homes - Love ya, Brother!), one of my best friends is an archaeologist, and I read not just the notes in dry history books but the bibliographies as well (that's how I figure out what book to buy next)... well, you get the picture! Sometimes I wonder what my husband sees in me...

Today I signed up for college - I haven't gone for 10 years. I'm going to pursue my history degree. Everyone on both sides of my family loves history but I'm the first to pursue this degree.

Tara

Mirjam Bruck-Cohen wrote:

I also prefer to use the Holebein stitch also because it makes a nicer stitched piece but it does take a little thinking to actually stitch a design using it. AND there are a few tricks to make the Holbein stitch look even smoother and neater!

Following the chart using a backstitch is much easier - especially for a beginner. And some designs are practically, if not impossible, to to completely in reversible Holbein. So one would have to do the backstitch or a modified backstitch.

I used to think Blackwork meant it was ALWAYS done using the Holbein stitch, but even in the early days it was in what ever way it took to create the pattern. Of course if it would show on both sides of a garment, the Holbein stitch would be preferred.

It is my understanding that Hans Holbein was a painter not a stitcher. Many of his paintings dipicted clothes with the 'double running' stitch and at some point in time the stitch became known by his name - Holbein stitch. And indicated in previous posts - there are lots of names for the same stitches - it just depends on where you are and when... So in the stitching world - a picture (chart or diagram) is worth a thousand words and can prevent a lot of confusion.

Happy Stitching - Margaret Lee

Yes, he was a painter. My reference to him as a "stitcher" was just my typing the wrong word. He did design artwork for garments - but he didn't do any stitching.

Tara

For me, Holbein is much faster and uses less thread. I use it wherever I can in lieu of backstitch, even on cross-stitch designs.

Lynda

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Sometimes I think war is God's way of teaching us geography." ..................Paul Rodriguez..................................... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~