OT - Horrible Shootings at Va Tech

In my opinion, they're all rascals and only want what's best for them, not what's best for the greater good. But I digress.

That wasn't why the second amendment was written. Remember, the FF were facing fighting a war against a totalitarian government (to them, because they were colonists). They were feeling the lack of their freedom very acutely.

They wanted to create a government that was accountable to the people and they were pretty sure they could do that, but they also knew that over time, governments have a way of becoming autonomous beasts by their very nature. They knew that even the one they created would become just as bad, if left unchecked.

Further, they held personal property rights to be the next highest God-given right after freedom. Protecting one's own personal property from confiscation of the government was tantamount and, I would argue, the twin sister of freedom. Without property, freedom means nothing. Without the ability to keep what you have, both property and freedom are lost.

And I agree with posters below thread who stated that there are responsibilities that go with it also. I think that a good portion of people who don't have guns are afraid of them and I think that a good portion of people who do have guns aren't afraid enough. I was reared in a house with guns and we were trained in their use and care. We knew they weren't toys and treated them with respect.

It's not really about our current leaders (although BushCo is far from the worst of the lot). The presidency is transient. The legislature and supreme court, on the other hand, are not. However, for this instance, I was thinking more about the power of a bureaucracy.

IMO, there's a fourth "pillar" of gummint that the FF never envisioned or, if that had, would want: the IRS. It has more power to directly affect our lives than any of the three executive branches put together--and it's not even elected. You can't get rid of it by voting. You can't change it. It's always going to be there and it's always going to be taking the money you earn. What's republican, democratic, or otherwise Founding Fathers-like about that?

I don't know and I don't really even think about what form a "rising up" would take or what it'd look like, and I don't sit here worrying about it in the least bit, because I spend my life taking care of business. But that doesn't mean I'm not acutely aware of freedoms and property being chipped away little by little.

I would have thought that the best protection against the government is a good education and a good lawyer!

As for weapons, I think all multiple shot weapons, such as machine pistols, should be completely banned, except for use in all-out war. Even then they're terrible! They're unnecessary for self-defence, target-shooting, or hunting, and have no place in any normal life. That would immediately cut down the amount of damage that can be done by these maniacs.

Joyce in RSA.

They're already banned. Yet, people still have them and the ones who do do terrible things with them. Banning them hasn't solved the problem of people doing terrible things to other people.

Should we ban airplanes because four of them were hijacked and three successfully crashed into big buildings and killed a lot of people--and one didn't because of some extremely enterprising people who had the advantage of knowing what was going on and the courage to fight back to spare others' lives?

Maniacs will always find a way to do their maniacness.

While I don't disagree with your rational, IMO, the issue of gun control goes further. The responsibilities, and the problem with permits can be considered the crux of the problem. It is way too easy for anyone to get a gun. The gun industry has lobbied down every possible control - from waiting periods, to restrictions on the amount of ammunitions in an automatic clip, to the licensing of "semi-automatic" weapons. If there were some rational, and actually enforced controls on what types of guns, required training, waiting periods, and limits there might be a better situation with respect to both illegal, legal and inadvertent use of guns.

Clearly guns aren't going away. But, does anyone honestly believe that the framers of the constitution envisioned automatic weapons - from their perspective of muskets - which had evolved over a couple of hundred years? Why do hunters need semi-automatic weapons? We have become a society that is losing respect for life - the proliferation of violent entertainment - from TV to movies to video games - has led to some bizarre glorification of killing as a game. Kids don't go to funerals, we protect them from "death"

- yet they play games where the beings killed pop back to life with a reboot.

Sure, this shooter had obtained his weapons -likely with some illegal thing- not clear to me - as he was a resident alien - and supposedly only US citizens can buy guns legally - but I don't know if that privilege extends to permanent residents. Since he'd filed off the serial numbers, then I'd guess there was a track of how he bought them.

Sure, have guns. But, can we not find a way to restrict them? Unfortunately - so much is about money . Criminals will have a black market

- but if the more powerful weapons are more controlled, then perhaps the marked will tighten. The excuse of the criminals will find a way is not really good enough to justify the ease of access that we allow for virtually anyone to have a gun. Rural communities or not - it's hard to believe that waiting a week or two or three or four for a gun permit will make such a significant difference in their life that it's unbearable. And, my goodness

- will the deer really get away if you have to shoot single rounds instead of a semi-automatic burst of 5? And why are the laws pushing to allow people so many guns? Does one really need an arsenal to defend your property from assault??? How many violent burglaries do we expect, and how many guns or shots does it take to protect you and yours in that event?

The right to bear arms had much to do with the protection from a government that impressed people into service, with violence, and stole property. And the need to form a militia. While we may not all agree with our taxes, the volunteer army, etc - it's not likely that any of us will be impressed by an armed force at the door. And, in the formation of a militia - well, in this day and age said government would supply the weapons.

Sorry for the rant, but living in a state where you can buy a gun at Wal-mart, well, sadly, this tragedy - with an unbalanced person doing the shopping, and so little - read this none - restrictions on permits - just pushes my buttons.

ellice

Ummm, not true. Multiple shot weapons aren't totally banned. "Semi-automatic" weapons, handguns with big clips - are indeed out there. Not banned.

Umm, taking the argument to an absurd point here. If you want to pursue that - follow the economics. Guns are cheap weapons, planes are really expensive weapons. Much more logistics involved even for maniacs to take over a plane, and just buying a plane - if one weren't a bunch of travellers

- is very pricey. Guns are cheap.

True - but they don't have to be facilitated. Reasonable precautions could force them to find another, less destructive outlet.

ellice

Nicely said Karen.

Lucille

Absolutely. The murder I've been working on the last couple months didn't involve a gun; he did it with a knife. Should we ban knives? My military boyfriend was trained to kill with his bare hands. I'm not sure how we would ban hands.

Because we don't want responsibilities. We only want rights.

Personally, I want the right to go into any LNS and take anything I want, without the responsibility of paying for it. Some of my former co-workers wanted the right to a paycheck, without the responsibility of doing any work.

ellice ,in rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote: and entertained us with

Is that for real ? You can buy a gun at Wartmart ? They were the people who didn't want to handle birth control prescriptions in their pharmacies weren't they ? Sanctity of life and all that ?

If I'm not mistaken Walmart does sell guns, but only hunting rifles and shotguns. I don't think they sell pistols and I'm sure they don't sell semi-automatic weapons that can only be used for killing. I've often said I'm for very, very strict gun control, but I guess as long as it's legal I can't blame them for doing what's good for business.

As far as birth control prescriptions they do dispense birth control pills. The controversy was about the "morning after" pill that lots of experts said was a dangerous medication and could cause all kinds of problems.

I'm going to put a disclaimer on this and say, I have no idea whether this policy is right or wrong and I'm just reporting what I think I remember correctly.

Lucille

You got it. Sometimes the only logic is illogic.

I always find it amusing that a friend (career Army Wife) who is adamantly anti-abortion is just as adamant that our army did the right thing by bombing innocent civilians at a market or party, because those babies and fetuses are just "collateral damage". (So now I know, if I ever need an abortion, I can escape her wrath by wandering into a war zone and letting the army do it.)

Yes, Lucille, I think you're right. Though the " weapons that can only be used for killing" struck me as kind of funny - it's not like any of the other guns are intended "just to wound" . But, I understand what you were trying to say - the distinction between regular guns and the high-powered semi-automatics, etc.

In Virginia - essentially you can buy a gun a month. And yes, Wal-mart does carry them - it freaked me out one day when DH was desperately looking for a specific digital watch, and we ended up there, and just adjacent was the gun counter. Guns for "sports" are sold in many stores, in VA, and many states.

In this incident - the guns were indeed bought legally - as a green card holder the distrubed young man was able to buy the 2 guns. And it's really easy here to get a concealed gun permit - essentially as long as you don't have a felony record.

Honestly, I don't really remember the details about the birth control controversy.

Virginia is one of those states that in itself seems to represent the Civil War - so to speak. It is very split between the extremely urban, metro DC Northern VA area - lots of white collar, big "thinking" kind of jobs area, very expensive, very mixed culturally with all the attitudes that go with "northern" or yankee type places. The rest of the state is much more southern in attitude, and if not that, certainly more slow in lifestyle, and more rural. There is no manufacturing around here - industry is software and thinking kinds of things, and support for life. The rest of the state has the rural, agrarian things. And if you see what goes on in politics - it's reflective of that . The laws of the "Commonwealth" are pretty bizarre in some instances, and following the state legislature can be a hoot. If not sad. Hence, gun control - there's nothing happening here. But, the current governor, and the prior one are great guys, IMHO.

The convocation at Va Tech today was pretty nice - the governor, the President, and others speaking - and the students, faculty, etc trying to come together.

Ellice

It always amazes me that almost every hospital has: A department helps women (who have difficulty in conceiving) to produce a foetus A department helps (women who have conceived) to get rid of their foetus

BUT!!!! the reverse also occurs. I remember when my daughter went to college in 1980,I was a career Navy wife!!!! We had a talk one day, and I said that if she got pregnant, it was OK with me if she had an abortion. In fact, I guess I encouraged it. naturally, a Mom pushes for abstinence first.

I had seen a patient die several years before, prior to coming to the USA (I was a Med Tech) from an illegal back-street abortion in London and it was horrific!To this day, and I am 70, I remember the poor young girl's name. I was so surprised when my daughter was totally against me. I guess we didn't talk as much in those days!!

When we were stationed in Spain, abortion was against Spanish law, so there would usually be a sad military female person on the plane when it went to Germany on it's regular run.

Well, all is well with my daughter, although some of their family events were a bit out of sync.!! They are a family who I am so proud to call my own! DGS has VaTech in his preferential list, and I hope he does go there!!

Gillian

Just to be clear, Walmart does sell semi-automatic rifles. Whether one considers them "only used for killing" may depend on the person ;-)

Best wishes, Ericka

You're right. I was thinking of the kind of guns that are used in the military. I guess it should be obvious I know almost nothing about guns and if it weren't for crime shows on TV and stories in the newspapers, I would know even less.

Lucille

Sorry to get on a hobby horse, but I really must protest the use of the word "foetus". The foetus is the *mature* embryo. The human embryo has many different words to describe it's progrsss as it matures. It is

Sorry for the imprecise language. When does an embryo become a foetus?