Actually, he's too strange for the girls - too socially awkward and I really, really hope it stays that way for a long time. He's got enough on his plate with keeping up grades and trying to go up a notch or three in hockey.
I've laid down the law that dating is OUT, no way if you want us to pay the bills. DD gets the same message, school first and foremost, if hockey remains a priority, so much the better. (right about now, I'd kill for some single sex school options for both of them; there's a pregnant sixth grader at the middle school)
NOW - I think the worst mistake was dating before I was done with college - there was 8 years (HS and college) to get as broad an education as possible and I wasted way too much of it mooning/moaning over some guy.
But that was part of your education! I think it's a real mistake to forbid dating - dating is how we learn what we like and by the time we're out of college, it's too late to learn some of the social cues and rules that allow people to find partners. It's probably best not to moon, but dating should certainly be allowed. I dated, and yes, I made mistakes and "wasted time" but I still managed to pull an advanced degree out of it as well as learning what I should be looking for in a husband by the time I was ready for one.
As someone who was often told not to do things if I wanted to continue to have my tuition paid for, I would urge you to think seriously about that position. It something I still really resent my mother for doing to me and that's too bad, really.
Got to agree with that. If girls think DS is weird now, just wait till he's 22 and admits he's never gone on a date. I know some people who, for various reasons, didn't date till "late", and they are socially awkward. Personally, I'd be more inclined to forbid him to join a fraternity than to forbid him to date.
My parents never said "you can't date till you're 16 (or 18 or 25)". They said "we'll think about it when we meet the boy". Well, I was 15 and introduced them to the guy they still wish I'd married, so obviously, we got permission. Unfortunately, no one since has measured up to his standard of perfection, as far as they're concerned.
And, really, that's one of the things I think they got right. If they had given me a firm number, then they wouldn't have been able to put their foot down if, two weeks after that birthday, I'd brought home some alcoholic biker dude.
By the time I went off to college, they had a pretty good picture of how my taste in men ran, and had no major concerns about me dating NOT under their watchful eye, since I tended toward respectable intellectuals. I'd even turned down a boy who went to our church regularly (he would've been acceptable to Mom), so they knew I wouldn't go out with "just anyone".
I'm with you on this one. Dating successfully requires practise, and it's better to practise on other amateurs. As for mooning, hormones being what they are, he/she will likely do that anyway, perhaps more if they don't have an outlet. Dora
I still think I wasted way too much time - I should have been pushing more course work, not spending weekends at mixers and frat parties. There was plenty of "social life" on campus - music, art, concerts, bull sessions.
Please note, I never said they could not have friends of the opposite sex, hang out or go out in groups. One on one dating will not be allowed, especially in high school. The high school years are the major time for directed education and building the stepping stones for the rest of your life.
I didn't date until college. Because I hadn't experienced the casual dating and break-ups common to middle and high school, I was too naive to realize I was in a bad relationship and ended up marrying the guy during my second year of college, endured his abuse for a few years, and then beat myself up for several more years because I couldn't make the marriage work. Relationships are a part of education about life and it is better if they get some experience in handling dating situations while you are there to guide them than to wait until they are out on their own and rudderless.
Not to menti> I've laid down the law that dating is OUT, no way if you want us to pay the
Ah, but once I started dating one person seriously, I stopped going to mixers and frat parties, because I didn't need to meet other men.
Bob and I had about half our classes together, so we helped each other study. Our dates were not a waste of time ... they were study sessions I probably wouldn't have had otherwise. Even when we told ourselves we were going out to dinner, guess what we'd wind up talking about?
As I said, I'd be more inclined to ban joining a frat (so he's not tempted to go to the parties, which are often limited to members only) than to ban dating.
And I'd talk up the benefits of dating someone who shares your major. ;)
As I said, by the time I left for college, my parents had a good idea what my taste in men ran to, and knew they didn't have to worry what I was going to do when I was away from their watchful eye.
Now, that's one thing that I wish my parents had told me. They had me convinced that every marriage could be made to work and that there was no valid reason for anyone to divorce. Like Brenda, I endured abuse because I had the idea that the marriage would eventually work if I just gave in more often. But it was a classic case of "give him an inch and he'll take a mile"; because he got away with something small, he tried something medium, and when he got away with that, he tried something large.
Eventually, I went to a church counselor for advice on what more I could do to make it work better, and that was the first time that I ever heard "some men shouldn't be married". If the marriage wasn't working when I was giving 110% and getting zero, then it wasn't going to work any better if I gave 200%. When a CHURCH counselor tells you the solution is divorce, you know your parents are wrong with their advice to "just make it work".
Because I had never dated a "bad boy", I had no clue that there are people who will say what you want to hear rather than telling the truth. X#1 and I went through church pre-wedding counseling and the minister was impressed with his answers to the questions. He may have known that the correct answer is "I would never ever hit a woman, we will talk out all our problems in a calm and reasonable fashion", but that wasn't the way he handled it when we had our first post-marriage disagreement. In fact, nothing he said to the minister in those sessions (other than his name) was the truth. It may be argued that the rosy glow of love blinded me to his faults, but he was such a practiced liar that he bamboozled a minister who wasn't starry-eyed.
Unless you are planning on having them live at home, I wouldn't make rules for college that I couldn't enforce. I had a roommate who wasn't allowed to date. Guess what she didn't tell her parents? And she was a good girl who was deeply distressed by the lies, but she was also very much in love with a boy of whom they would never have approved (not Filipino).
By the time kids go off to college all you can do is hope that you've already raised them right. Forbidding one on one dating at that point would cause you and them more grief than it would be worth, IMHO. The last thing you want to do is to complicate the lines of communication with you.
I recently worked on a criminal case with much the same facts. Very sheltered, immature girl from a strict non-Anglo family. Because her parents forbid her to date, she couldn't ask their advice when things went bad. And it was definitely a situation where she needed to talk to someone older and wiser, and not her equally-sheltered teenage friends.
It seems this slime had been preying on naive, sheltered freshgirls for years, knowing he could get away with a lot because if they weren't supposed to date, they would never say "what should I do, Mom?", and, moreover, that he had an added level of control over them by threatening "if you break up with me, I'll call your parents and tell them you were dating, and then you'll get in big trouble."
It says a lot that the girls were more afraid of their parents finding out they'd been dating than of his temper.
I'm a grandma now, both of my kids are married with babies of their own. I remember clearly when they were in high school. I was on parents' committees with mothers who felt as you do. Let me tell what the outcome was. Two of the boys came out of college as still total dweebs
- no decent girl would date them even though they were by now making mucho bucks. They were forever labelled as "mama's boys". Likewise, two of the girls are still decidedly peculiar. The rest - well, they just deceived their parents. They would announce they were going out with friends, then very quickly pair off. One girl had an abortion, paid for by the boy, and her parents never did get to hear about it while I still lived in that town.
Do you want to be reasonable and keep an eye on their dates, or do you want to be lied to?
But, they won't be sheltered, just no one on one dates. She'll be well able to take care of herself. She's already learned which boys to avoid (like the one that told her playing hockey wasn't for girls) and which ones are good friends.
Him - there are things that are more important than girls and I suspect it will continue that way for another 4-6 years.
I've got to say - you're definitely out of your mind - and starting to sound a little scarey ;^)
DD is a bit young for dating - you should have at least another 5 years for the group dating to happen. Most of the hockey kids we know - and there are lots - seem to do a lot of group dating in high school. The god-son didn't really have a girlfriend until late junior year, and the god daughter who is a senior, and very pretty, but very, very, brainy (goes to the regional Science & Tech Hi School for the "gifted") goes out a lot with her gal pals, and mixed groups. But those kids have about as much work to do as I did in grad school (well, almost).
It would seem to me that telling them they can't date will only make them rebellious - but what do I know. I know you're not like the commercials planning your future retirement based on the kids NHL careers?
DH managed to date, play hockey, go to an Ivy (Cornell) and play hockey there - and have at least a summer job, and IIRC a part-time school year job (in high school - when he played both as a starter Varsity Football, and Hockey - he did have to give up soccer as a freshman - too much overlap).
I'd be more worried about excessive partying rather than the dating thing. Coaching - we've always tried to make sure the kids know - be smart - NO Partying the night before a game. Period. And if they show the results of such stupidity - there's a nice comfy spot on the bench.
OTOH, if you have no perspective on dealing with the preferred partner type, then you do waste a lot of time. But, honestly, do you want your children to grow up socially inept, as in to become the next Ted Kacinsky - to take an extreme.
Dating, spending time in social groups is part of the normal, socialization, maturation process. Right now - my observation of the godchildren and their friends - is lots of group dating - much lower perecentage of what you likely think of as dating.
Socializing in college, high school - is a good thing. Keeping the priorities straight is the key. Kids who don't develop social skills by the time they're through with college - well, heck - I've worked with plenty of them - and it's not always a good thing.
You're doing a good job with your kids - have some faith in them, too.
FWIW - from my single-sex schooled DH (til senior year), and the crazy SILs who went to catholic high schools and catholic colleges - the sisters were definitely wilder in behaviour. DH said it didn't really make a difference when he switched to the public high school for senior year (move to DC) - cause those single sex schools all have sister/brother schools. Kind of the forbidden fruit thing happens.
When I went to university - pretty much the 1st year of full-time female students (as in about 170 to 12,000) it was pretty weird. We likely dated less - and the guys had plenty of girls from the surrounding nursing school, fashion school, female college, etc. I wasted time, too - but it's all part of growing up. And my grades recovered ;^)
Part of the problem is a very broad definition of "dating." AFAIK, there isn't very much "dating" any more, in the sense of casual one-on-one socialization with a member of the opposite sex. Nowadays it seems there's "hanging out in a group" and "having a boyfriend/girlfriend." (which is NOT the same thing as "dating" as people of earlier generations remember it.)
On 1/13/07 11:17 PM, "Karen C - California" wrote:
Good point. When I was in undergrad school, and hung out with a bunch of guys from my project classes and some upper (doing combined grad and ug classes) there was a smart guy, so geeky that us geeks felt sorry for him. He kind of hung out with us - a little bit - as in we weren't mean to him - and did some studying, etc. Anyhow - my little crew of "cool" mech es (we had a boat - long story) and lots of class work - and would ocassionally go to movies on campus - and said geek would come along to the movies (don't' think the boat). Anyhow - the guys goaded me into a "mercy" date - this guy had some crush on me, and finally I agreed to go out with him. Of course, I had to drive - and went to get him - almost backed up at the door. He totally dressed like a 55 year old guy - complete with houndstooth polyester slacks, a Cuban shirt (the kind you see on old gentleman playing dominoes on Calle Ocho) - outy, kind of sport-dress shirt, and oxford shoes - with hair in kind of a weird combover. We went to a nice thai restaurant. And walked to our table past a table of profs/wives from the Ops Resrch dept (in which I was an undergrad resrch asst, and dating one of the grad students - casually). I was dressed more normally (silk shirt, nice jeans, etc). The profs all waved hi - and as I passed to go to the ladies room - grabbed me with the big "what the heck query?" - my response - "don't ask" , and Joe knows.
Point being, after the date - which was pleasant enough conversation, but socially very awkward we went back to his dorm and talked for a short time. He wanted to continue the "relationship" .Poor guy - I just looked at him and said - I hate to seem shallow, and maybe this is - but you need to get more like your age, and not an old man - as in clothes, look, outlook. So, I agreed to go shopping with him (and some of our group), and help him get a decent haircut. Thing was - I met his parents - dad worked on campus - very nice, normal (cooler than son). He had twin younger brothers in high school
- that I liked a lot. But, the mother - wow - she was scarey. Hadn't let him date at all in high school - or evidently in college. Bought all his clothes for him, cut his hair . She was a little thing, with huge glasses, and kind of eccentric looking - but the first son was totally under her control. It was sad - and he did blossom a bit that year (at least looked more normal, and made some more friends). But, the mother hated me. There was no serious relationship on my part - but he got totally overwrought - and it seemed to me that it was because of his lack of experience socially. Hanging out with me, and some of the guys was a new experience - and as a senior in college he was getting the freshman/sophmore thing . That summer
- I was away at work - and he would call, write - etc. It was terrible - but finally the break-up worked, or he got the point - but I ended up being kind of mean - which is not really my nature. I don't think that during the school year it helped that some of the guys would tease me about him (knowing that it was a friend thing on my part, and whatever on his). I still remember one day - mid-way through the year - seeing him in the hallway - outside the engineering library - stack of books, calculator on belt, and his sweater (kind of a sweater shirt with a collar) on.... BACKWARDS. He'd been like that for quite some time. I was just walking out of the dean's office with another student - we stopped, looked, and said "J*** - go fix your shirt..).
I'm sure he's grown up into an accomplished scientist - but have no doubt that his mother's domination, and strictness with him kind of backfired - this was one really, really, socially awkward guy.
I didn't date much in high school - I was graduating quite early. But, I did have guy friends, and some dates (mostly college guys). The parents met them, and I didn't go crazy, and that was that.
College - well, that involved the whole gamut - dating, some relationships, some single times, lots of "big brothers" . But, having social skills paid off as part of an education, and in work. Way too many of the guys I worked with - especially early on - couldn't communicate and their social awkwardness certainly affected opportunities. But, then again, I worked in the "revenge of the kingdom of the nerds" - so sometimes being socially adept, articulate would backfire in resentment from some guy wearing 2 pocket protectors.
Are you feeling put upon? Perhaps the thing to consider is that you'd prefer they not date one-on-one, and when the situation arises - deal with it honestly rather than threateningly. As far as DD - what one does in the
2nd or 3rd grade is not necessarily an indicator for life. Worrying now, seema kind of absurd as you have plenty of time, and she has plenty of growiong up to do. I was a terrific tomboy, the family joke is that my dad though I was his son - I played all the rough sports, etc. But, guess what
- I still found guys to go out with - and marry.
Judgment of 8,9, 10 year old boys versus who they become at 16,17, 18 and beyond is kind of silly. This sounds like setting up some rigid, not open-minded way of looking, thinking about people. And she's pretty darned young to be worrying about this.
It may. It may not. It may for about 2 more years, and then something will hit him. I'd say let them know you don't want them to be planning on serious dating in high school - but - jeez - see what happens when the situation comes up. Is this kid never supposed to go to a dance? Even when they go as a group - a lot are as dates - but several couples going together. You don't want this to backfire .
Hopefully your kids will develop social skills - beyond the rink - and you'll encourage that. Wait and see - you know - bend like a willow - not break.
Yup - that's what I've observed with the godchildren. And honestly, the godson seemed to be the main one with a "girlfriend" in his group. So we see them with some of his guys a lot. He was a doing sports and studying guy until the end of 11th grade. Then got a gorgeous, nice, girlfriend - then they broke up in mid-senior year. He was fine - thought it was good to be "free" to spend time with his friends, etc . Went off to college - and a few months in - the ex is trying to hook back up but he said no. Good kid - very nice, very cute.
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