Cheryl Isaak ,in rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote: and entertained us with
Well that is definitely where parents come in, schools too, absolutely frank discussion with ones children, full details about birth control and the possible hazards of STD's, also the often traumatic feelings of rejection etc. that come from brief relationships.
Telling children "Don't do it, abstention is best" is a crock because we all know they will do it. The only thing you can do is arm them for the fray then if they don't do it, no harm done, but if they do, no harm done.
If ever there is a subject between parent and child that needs frankness, sex is it. Telling them to abstain will not work (as someone else pointed out very eloquently) leads them to start concealing big events in their lives from you and is the worst possible way to go.
Guess what? Yesterday when I was home watching tv, my dog howled, too! Not *real* loud but it lasted for probably 7 seconds. My legs were blocking the position of her head and I figured if I put them down she'd wake up (she's a pretty light sleeper). I thought of your message immediately! :)
Odd how I've never heard her do it before you brought this up! Is there something in the air?
Jeez - you either must live in a horrid area, or have really uneducated young teens. Thought the latest statistics are showing that there is a decrease in such overall, and that the higher decrease is in the younger - teen age - groups. Being attributed to more sex education, etc. There was a report out from maybe NIH or H&HS a few weeks back about this.
Education - y'know - safe sex, the risks, etc. All the young adults I've known in the last several years seem pretty aware, and not all to be screwing around - especially with the group things. It seems the groups are more social groups, though you sort of see "hook-ups" as in some couples structure within the group.
Has New Hampshire been struck by the worst problems of the inner city - or are you just becoming a really over-worried, pessimistic mom? I hope neither.
FWIW - we know young adults who were undoubtedly having some kind of close physical (sex) relationship when seniors in high-school, and others who are clearly not at all. When the godson was spending a lot of time in his basement lair with the girlfriend - I asked his mom if they'd had the safe sex, etc talk. She was, being exceptionally liberal, concerned about invading his privacy, and sure that at 17+ he was pretty aware. His dad had the to be sure talk. As evidently the girlfriend's parents had also.
Good to be vigilant - but you don't really want to turn your children into scared of everything uneducated and socially maladept people, do you?
There are also those kids who don't realize that STDs can be spread even if they don't "go all the way" because the abstention folks don't bother teaching that.
LOL - you never know. These furry peoples have their own ways! It's really gusting here, and right now Puckster is playing guardian - after crazy frisbee thrwoing out back -he's now perched up on a chair looking out the front and surveying the blowing around the street - he looks quite serious about these duties.
The other day, DH pointed out that the mysteriously opening RH Sunroom door was caused by the dog. We can't really use that room right now - because it's crammed with all the LR furniture and stuff. So, the french doors on either side of our fireplace stay closed. But, it seems the dog had found his way into pushing one open, sneaking through, and found a nice, comfy place on a lr chair (covered with sheet) that is facing the rear uncovered french doors. Pretty smart - I guess he can see the yard, and get some sun from there.
Too true and Clamydia (sp?) has long term disadvantages such as female sterility which is often incurred because the woman can have little to no particular symptoms. Clamydia stats amongst young women today were very scary the last time I saw some.
OK, here goes - ABSTINENCE is BEST, but does NOT mean people shouldn't be educated about sexuality, birth control, STD's, etc. I had a friend in high school who's mother told her once she started menstruating that 'kissing makes you pregnant.' My cousin kissed her on the cheek one day, and she started her period that same day & ran away, scared she was pregnant!!! Many many people choose to wait until they are married or committed before having sexual relations of any sort. Not all kids will 'do it anyway.' Parents need to teach their kids their values as well as facts about our health and our bodies.
Cheryl, I'm sorry you're taking such heat on your comments about your kids dating & such. You have every right to raise your kids how you feel best for them. I don't necessarily agree with all you have said about them not dating, but I do agree that encouraging them to take their time and know both themselves and the person they are considering is wise. Best wishes
My college roommate was just horrified when our friend Joe got up from my chair and I sat down without spraying it with Lysol or washing it or something. She was convinced that I was going to get pregnant from sitting in the chair Joe just sat in.
Then another person came in, I offered the guest my chair, and went to sit on the edge of the bed next to Joe. Again, roomie was convinced that sitting fully-clothed on the bed next to a fully-clothed man was enough to get me pregnant.
Apparently, as intelligent and educated as her parents were, they gave her such a vague Birds & Bees speech that she was convinced just being near a man was enough. A few days later, she was presented with a copy of "Our Bodies, Ourselves", and we'd rustled up every birth control device in the dorm as visual aids to our educational lecture. (Yes, Mom, even at a religious college, we had a wide variety of birth control devices. And the head of the Religion department made abortion loans, having learned that even mandatory chapel attendance and Religion classes was not enough to achieve 100% compliance with abstinence.)
TTBOMK, she did not go on a single date while she was in college, because even though we'd explained that dating/kissing/sitting are not enough to provoke pregnancy, she wasn't quite sure we were right.
I don't think Cheryl's taking "such heat" and I certainly don't think anyone is encouraging her to encourage her kids to have sex in high school. Dating is not the same as having sex and not all kids are running around doing either or both. Among my students, some certainly are sexually active, but I know plenty who make it clear that they are not. By dating, I meant interacting on a social level with an intent to get to know someone better, perhaps romantically.
Certainly Cheryl will do what she wants. I don't think anyone who knows her doubts that! *grin* Ellice and Sheena and others are just putting in our two cents worth because we can.
I do have one more thought on the subject however: when one says "don't do x, or we won't pay for college," one had best be prepared for the child in question to say "fine. No college, then." I can certainly think of a moment when I wish I'd told my mother that, because she would have backed down (on letting me live off campus with a female friend) rather than see me drop out. But we grow too soon old rather than wise. I should have stood up to my mom (who was prone to giving ultimatums about anything she wanted us kids to do) about five years before I actually did. But then I'd have a very different life and perhaps she was right after all.
Wow - does this bring back memories. One year, a good friend and I shared a rental townhouse with someone we'd known from jr hi, high school. She was a nice girl - spent way, way too much time in the shower, primping, etc. Not very pretty - but a nice girl. From a rather pampered background - not a lot of money - we called her the Jewban Princess - her family were Cuban Jews that had fled in the 60s. Anyhow - her older brother was very cool, smart, all things the roomies like in the older brother (who we'd also known forever). Said roomie, D, had a terrible crush on one of his pals, and evidently assumed she was going to have an arranged something with him (not the case in his eyes). Anyhow - evidently she was quite inexperienced, and would joke that she was living a bit vicariously through B, our other roomie (who was a very smart girl, but partied a lot - broadcast journalism major). I was in the middle somewhere. So, one day - D finally has a date with a cute, normal, guy that we know. They go out (after her 3 hour shower and prep). When they came in they went up to her room (she had a single, B&I shared the master). No big deal. In the morning, B, I, the guys from next door are hanging around the dining room - coffee and bagels and newspapers. About 10:30 am - down the stairs come the cute guy, and D. D is still completely dressed in her slacks, dressy blouse, tucked in and belted, still has her knee-highs on under the slacks. Cute guy leaves. D goes back upstairs. Comes back a little while later, and is concerned - could she be pregnant - because they were necking, and well, she's not sure what finally happened - with him. But - she had her clothes on the whole time, and she was "in the bed" while he was over the blanket, under the bedspread - but she did hear him moan... You get the picture. We didn't know whether to laugh or cry. This girl was older than us, and at that time 20 oe 21. So, we assured her that there was no way - they'd had no bodily contact except for spit swapping - and that even "super sperm" weren't getting through all those barriers. We gathered that he had taken off his outer shirt at least. Then we asked her how come she didn't at least take off the knee-highs - that wouldn't make her a floozy. Let alone why not change into something more comfortable.
Sounds similar - although we think that D did get some more dates. We felt so badly for her - she seriously thought this friend of her brothers was going to be her prince charming - and he was so not interested. The brother and pal weren't dummies (both in the engineering school) but seemed to have more normal social lives.
Wow - I haven't thought about her in quite a while.
You are so right. My mom tried some ultimatums - or at least thought about them - but she knew I would take the challenge - so thought better. The biggest issue was when I was going off to university at 15. My DM suddenly decided I should stay home - but the situation wasn't very viable. My DF had said that if I would stay home for another year - then they'd let me have a horse. That worked. I finally said okay to that - then they reneged on the horse. So I said - nope, going away. Years later my DM (after I dropped out of school after sophomore year) would announce that she should have put her foot down, refused to pay, refused to let me go. But, as I told her that wouldn't have mattered - they paid very little (I had an academic scholarship) and honestly - if she had done that I would have gone to a different school - more my choice than theirs - and still have been away. I didn't regret the decision - could I have been smarter - sure - but you learn from all these life lessons, and go on. But, I did always know that when I was a teen - for some time my DM was a bit intimidated by me - and my DF let me know it - as in telling me I was giving her a nervous breakdown. Fortunately we grew past those times as I got older and more forgiving or something like that.
"T Michelle Jensen" ,in rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote: and entertained us with
Cheryl is taking 'heat' ?? I doubt it, most of the answers I have seen have come from people she knows well who would never take a hit at her personally.
It goes without saying that along with sex education, a concerned mother like Cheryl, has worked in moral education through the years with her children and in the end, all will be well. Friends were suggesting to her not to be too adamant about dating, it can have a reverse effect.
I still say though, that many children may not have sex and may stick with the abstinence idea, but many more will have sex and they need to be well protected, in every way. One only has to look at stats to realize that.
I am childless but am going to chime in anyway. I think the most important thing for Cheryl's DS to learn, more important than dating, is how to be friends with girls. If DS can have girls as friends, then whether or not he dates, he will be comfortable around them when he does get around to dating and won't seem awkward. Ditto for DD - boys can be friends.
Boys can be valuable friends. I didn't have a big brother of my own, but some of my male friends took on that role. I was actually better protected than a friend whose biological big brother was the classic geek who didn't know how to throw a punch. And not just because she only had one big brother and I had a dozen.
( I started this before the ice storm hit and took the power with it!)
First - what ever rule we make for him, has to apply to her. So, since we are especially worried about her dating, it makes sense to make the age as late as possible. Is no dating in college a bit over the top? yes, but given I will spending my 401K to send her (and paying the fines for using it before 65), I think I can ask that of her. She gets to start life is as small a debt as possible. Him, I'm more worried about the parties and drinking and will consider his abstinence from those as his contribution to his college fees. Can he/she go to the school dance? Yes, I drop off and pick up (even if they have their drivers license). Ditto movies. I'll drop and go at the rink, but never the mall.
Second and far more important, it's scary world out there. Among teens, STDs (especially the lifetime ones) are on the rise. Dating is no longer a courtship (as in getting to know you, dinners and school dances), but a one night stand with no emotional attachment and date rape is epidemic. I asked some of the moms on DS's JV team. Mostly, they'd rather their children (boys and girls) didn't date in HS, and few others are considering forbidding it. Have friends and study buddies of the opposite sex - yes, hooking up - no thanks.
This probably is doable through high school but I'm not so sure of whether it will work when they go to college and aren't at home and under your thumb.
However, one thing I believe to be true is that you are a very good influence and can teach them right from wrong so if this situation is approached in your usual efficient and rational way it has a good chance of succeeding. Hopefully your kids will live up to your expectations and being well brought up will help them to stay on the straight and narrow.
You never use your retirement funds to pay for college, because you will not have many years to replenish them. By sending her out into the world with as little debt as possible, you increase the chances that she will end up supporting you in your old age. This is one time when it is important to look out for Number One first.
Let her take out the loans, and then, if you find that you are in a position to help her after graduation, you can help her make the payments. OTOH, if you've lost your job or become disabled, you'll still have your 401k to fall back on yourself.
Having those student loans helped me establish a credit rating. And when I refinanced with another agency, the initial loan showed on my credit record as "paid in full" -- the apparent ability to pay off such a large loan in about a year got me much larger credit lines than I would've gotten based just on my income.
Honestly, my experience has been that those who start dating in high school are much better off in the long term than those who start later. It's helpful to go through those early throes of relationships when you can come home to your family and have a soft spot to land and a little advice to hand, rather than an empty dorm room or apartment. Just a really rough survey of those I know finds that those who started dating in high school under the watchful eyes of their parents did better long term (and had more successful marriages) than those who couldn't date in high school.
I have to agree with Karen on this one. Student lending is a competitive market and the interest rates are quite favorable. And who knows--after scholarships they might not need much money if all goes well. And don't let some bug-eyed adviser tell you that students shouldn't work while in college because that is total hogwash. Unless the student has a serious learning disability and really does need three times as many hours of study to accomplish what is expected, the time spent at a job is one of the most valuable experiences of college. Yes, their own income and savings count more against them on financial aid applications, but if your income and resources are high enough that they won't get need-based grants it really isn't a big issue. The money you have in retirement plans does not count against them for financial aid so you could have millions socked away and that would be invisible (unless you are old enough to have mandatory withdrawals from the account). And if you really must cough up some money, an additional mortgage is still wiser than raiding your retirement. At least you get to write off the mortgage interest on your taxes!
It's not the only source of retirement dollars. DH and I have ear marked a pair of 401K accounts as "college money". These are left all to grow and aren't part of our planned retirement monies. UNH is currently $19K (assuming triple room and no athletic fees) and that's the instate tuition. Assuming that they go out of state, add 15K for a state school. Double it if they go someplace private. Unless you get megabuck grants, you're going to start life with 100K or more in debts.
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