OT: reality check for Karen C.

Oh dear! And here I was counting on you being exclusively our own when you had all that extra time and were no longer teaching at the university.

Lucille ;*))

Those poor boys, just when they thought you would be a SAHB

LOL - you rabble rouser, you. It suddenly made me think of the time (before my infoamous advisor had his disappearing act nervous breakdown) when one of my work-studies came to my office, shaking and crying. I had sent this nice sophomore over to his office (across from the building my office/lab was in) to give him a print-out of some results and pick-up something he had for me. The girl came back - unable to speak. My officemate - well, across the cubicle divider - and I finally got her to tell us the problem - while stuttering, crying - she'd gotten to his office (the LH door at the end of a T ) door wasn't latched, just slightly almost ajar, she knocked, it swung open - and she'd heard voices. What did she find - the idiot doing an undergrad - on his desk. Lovely. A couple of the senior faculty, the next term, told me they'd been charting his undergrad class grades, and noted a distinct difference in grades for cute, blonde, girls, versus the rest of the girls, and then the general population. What a moron - it only starts the story.

He didn't get fired. Though, after his disappearance (long story of woes involvling several of us having to do something bizarre to get our Advanced Fluid Dynamics credits - we knew he had issues in mid-term when he couldn't do the chain rule in calculus) when he came back, was hospitalized, then home, then they tried to let him bluff his way (this means grad students had to teach his undergrad courses in the spring) then in the fall, well - finally they let his contract go (he was up for tenure - HAH).

Nope - the world does seem to work a bit differently at times.

Ellice

I know you probably didn't mean to compare calling someone a dipshit with sleeping with ones students, but please. They're hardly in the same league and one of them definitely would and SHOULD get me fired.

Elizabeth

Reality check for you: I said nothing about your dean firing you for what was said on Usenet. I said the dean should be aware of your proclivity toward such language which is inappropriate for classroom discussions.

Now, here's the original quote to prove that you can't understand plain English: "If you were my professor, you'd be out of a job for such unprofessional language. Perhaps I should forward this to the Academic Dean of your institution and let him see what you consider to be a mature professional debating style; I'm sure he'll be duly impressed."

Nowhere in there does it say "I'm going to have you fired for what you said on Usenet." At the religious college I attended, there definitely would have been some action taken against a professor who used profanity toward a student in a classroom discussion.

At the very least, a professor who called someone a "dipshit" in lieu of formulating a reasonable response would've gotten a stern talking to. How do I know? Because I did go to the dean about one professor, and even though Judy and I did not (yet) have all the evidence needed to have him fired, just our combined say-so was enough to get him lectured about changing his ways, on the promise that if he behaved in the future, we would not do anything more about past transgressions than this private discussion with the dean.

SIGH !!!!!!!!

Lucille

Sure, Karen, whatever.

How is one incident a proclivity? And since I didn't use such language in a classroom situation, I fail to see why you brought my dean into it at all, unless you were implying a threat against my job, which of course you will now deny. It wouldn't be the first time you have brought up a threat or an accusation only to deny it or fail to respond when confronted directly.

Anyway, the point is that my dean laughed because, unlike you, he knows the difference between a social situation and a professional one and how to keep the two separate.

Which I have never done. So were you equating yourself with my students and Usenet with a classroom? Why bring my dean up otherwise? Why mention my job at all?

Stern talking to. *snicker* I think you have no understanding at all of the true power structure in academia. People don't get stern talkings to and they certainly don't get fired for calling someone a dipshit, even if they do it in the classroom. It takes a lot more than that, as Elise pointed out.

I think you seriously overestimate your power in that situation. Unless you actually had him fired, you can't claim to have had any impact on him at all. Lots of faculty are "lectured" with a wink and a sigh and go on their way. But you just go on comforting yourself with your little delusions of power and I'll go on laughing about it.

Elizabeth

Yes, I have heard Deans say some things I wish they would not have but it all comes under the heading of academic freedom, and rightly so. If 'dipshit' is going to be trouble, I hate to think what will happen to me !!

Just correcting yet ANOTHER misquote, by providing the original quote, proving that it does not say what I was accused of saying, because it's far more inflammatory to put words in my mouth and trust that no one will ever go back and find the original quote to prove what I actually said.

If I had an employee in a public contact position who was using profanity rather than reasoned logic in arguing with someone in a public forum, I would certainly want to know so that I could listen in on what they're doing in the course of their employment to see if they're using the same language in representing my business to the people who pay the bills.

We know he was talked to and we know he changed his ways, so, yes, I have my little delusions that this resulted from me and Judy threatening to go to the media if nothing was done.

The very last thing Admin wanted was to have the area from which they drew a very large proportion of their students to hear about such a problem. Judy and I were both well-spoken and telegenic, so if we'd both dimpled up at the media and charmed the menfolk among them, there was no question this was going to become a big, embarrassing story.

I was a chief high mucky-muck at the college radio station, which was heard all over the metropolitan area; we didn't even need to wait for the city newspaper and local TV stations ... we could go public on our own. And it would not have been the first time that the mainstream media showed up on campus as a result of a stray comment made on our station about student protests being planned, so we knew the local media were listening to us.

Judy and I wielded more power than the average student, and Admin knew it, so I have no doubt that we were taken very seriously.

Are you saying that your private life should be monitored? I always thought my workplace performance should be what counts.

IMHO this has a vague smell of "Big Brother."

Excuse me? I have no problem with people going back to check on what you actually said. I believe that you did imply a threat to my job and so I said so. If that's not what you meant, fine, but I think it is what you meant and so did others. I do not MISQUOTE you on purpose. I do, however, respond to what you appear to mean. If you think that's because I don't understand English, so be it; but I think we both know that's not the case. I do note that at no time have you moved to correct the misunderstanding immediately but always wait until there's a fierce discussion before pointing out that you've been "misquoted," so I can only believe that it's intentional on your part.

Sure. So you could fire them. Duh. Oh, but that's not what you mean, is it? Sheesh.

Elizabeth

Wow. You proofread for a living, yet you write stuff like this in public forums? Do your clients know this?

Elizabeth

I'm saying that if an employee has a penchant for verbal abuse in their private life, I'd want to know about it to be sure it doesn't carry over into the workplace and cost me clients. Just like you'd want to know if they're a habitual liar going to get you sued for making false representations to customers, or a habitual groper.

There's a reason some employers check references from both employers and social contacts.

No point in my clarifying something that everyone other than one person understands.

And, contrary to popular opinion, I'm running a business here and don't have time to check RCTN every 5 minutes. Sometimes these discussions break out while I'm doing something more important and I don't get back to them till all hell has broken loose.

In my office only business references were checked and personal references were rarely, if ever checked because you had to figure they only gave you the names of friends who would give you a good reference and it certainly wasn't cool or cost/time effective to look up neighbors. I'm not even sure that would be legal.

When my husband was given top secret government clearance for his job a couple of our neighbors were called, but they were only asked for knowledge of something like criminal activity or wife beating or something that might get you thrown into jail. They didn't ask anything that would mean they would have had a really close relationship with him.

Absolutely. But I wasn't the only one who thought you were threatening to have me fired.

Yes, but the last two times (before this one) you accused me of purposely misquoting you, you continued to participate in the conversation for quite a while before making your clarification, so you can't say that you didn't see it or that all hell hadn't broken loose in your presence without you clarifying what you meant early on to keep all hell from breaking loose.

I think you like it.

Elizabeth

Just so you know, it surely looks like you're implying that I have a pechant for verbal abuse (this is the second time for that one) and might be a habitual liar.

Do you want to deny that this is what you are implying or would you rather provide proof of the above accusations? After all, your clients might like to know that you engage in slander in your personal life.

Elizabeth

My husband had to have security clearances too and because we moved so often with the navy it became quite difficult for him to find people who had known him non-stop for five years. Eventually he had put down a married in aunt of mine. His vetter said something to him about the odd woman he had listed. I asked her what had been said and she said she didn't like the way they seemed to home in on me so when they said "Are there any foreigners in the family?" she said "Of course, his wife" - well I was a foreigner to her, she was Welsh lol He got his clearance, they just thought he sure married into a screwy family.