So...my questions

I wouldn't suggest putting a hoop *on* the silk thread (most silk snags somewhat easier than cotton, especially on long stitches), but I've never had a problem washing pieces stitched with silk thread. Eterna is very colorfast, although I wouldn't wash it in hot water with Tide.

If you *can't* stitch in hand, use a frame or qsnaps. Don't put the qsnaps over a stitched area.

And not being able to wash silks would really mean that you can't work in hand either. A piece worked in hand gets much more skin oil/grime on it than a piece worked in a hoop.

If you're working a complex piece, it makes it easier to keep track of where you are, since you've got a marker every 10 stitches. It's fairly easy to do. Using sewing thread (or glazed quilting thread), stitch a line across the center of the fabric. Most people use longer stitches. Stitch a line every ten stitches across the fabric, bot horizontal and vertical. (I don't find it necessary or helpful, but some people do.) It's a personal thing.

If the piece is going to be used (rather than just put on display) a piece stitched one at a time is going to be sturdier than one stitched in rows. Personally, I do whatever will make the front of the piece look best. If a piece is stretched and laced correctly before being framed, I don't think that it will make much difference in the short (

I've had no problem washing silk, nor would I imagine there's a big problem using a hoop (though I usually work in hand). If you are really worried about the hoop, you could use a scroll frame. If it really worries you, just do a small piece in your hoop and wash it and see how it comes out.

It helps keep you oriented to your pattern in large projects with lots of confetti stitches. It makes it less likely you'll end up with one of those "off by one" errors from counting inaccurately. Finding the center isn't usually a problem, but even after you've done that, it's easy to miscount when you need to place stitches that are a ways away from the stitches you've already placed. I don't bother with gridding anything that doesn't look like it might be a counting problem, but it's pretty darned handy when counting problems are likely. To grid, you just run long stitches at whatever intervals you like. I usually match whatever grid is on the pattern (usually every ten stitches there's a darker line). I'll usually go up and down every 2 or every 5 stitches with the basting line to serve as an additional check on counting.

I'm more worried about the appearance on the front than on the back. I strive for relatively neat backs, but I doubt most of my needlework will ever be in situations where a more dense back is of any use. So, I pretty much use traditional (one X at a time) for variegated/overdyed fibers (when I want that gradual transition effect), when working over one, for isolated stitches, or when it helps me get where I need to be. The rest of the time I generally use Danish.

lizard-gumbo ( snipped-for-privacy@cajuncookin.com) writes:

You have already had some replies. Let me add my 2 cents worth. In the early days of using silk, it was most unwise to wash it. However, since WWII techniques have been developed so that silk is now completely washable. Hence there is still advice out there which says you cannot wash silk. If it is silk you bought recently, it can be washed. Remember there is only one "rule" in stitching. The thread goes through the eye of the needle. Dont take any notice of anything anyone (including rctners) tells you that you *must* do. There are no embroidery police. I have never gridded any of my work. If you do grid, make sure you use a thread that *cannot* be pierced as you do the stitching. Monofilament works, or quilting threads. As to where you start, I prefer the top right hand corner. What I do is to find the middle, and count to the top right hand corner. Then I measure how much is left for framing; in my book at least 3 inches. This process solves several potential problem. If you happen to have the wrong size of canvas, you will find out. If the piece is rectangular, and you have width and height muddled up, you will find out. You dont have to start where I start, but I feel safe if I have counted to at least one corner from the middle, *before* I start stitching. As to neat backs, the question really boils down to, IMHO, how much thread you have at the back of the work. The more thread there, the sturdier to piece will be. If you really want sturdy backs, you can use tent, or continental stitches. Personally I like as little thread at the back of the work as I can get. To do this, I have worked out how to know what is happening at the back of the work, while I stitch the front. The easier the stitching at the front, the more I can concentrate on the back. However, my rule is that the front is far more important than the back. As to how you work out what is happening at the back, this is, I suspect, a very personal business. I know how I do it, but whether this suits other people, I have no idea. Assuming you are stitching on non-aida cloth. I assume you know all about the "vertical thread". If not, it is a good idea to find out. There is a rumour that you cannot do loop starts with an uneven number of threads. This is another myth. People also have had trouble using loop starts, and then finishing up with long lengths of thread, as they run out of symbols before they run out of thread. There are ways of coping with this. I could go on a long time with all the other tips I have got from reading rctn over the years. If you have any other thoughts, just post them and see what happens. HTH.

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

Hi LG

I think I've cross-stitched on everything from Copper metal screen using horsehair to silk on silk.

One thing I've learned, the 'RULES' are often Wrong! What works well for one person is extremely awkward for another or doesn't work for them at all.

My wife prefers to stitch a single color at a time, usually starting at the middle and radiating outward working each of the four quarters at a time. While I myself work only in horizontal rows starting at the upper left hand corner, regardless of how many color changes I may encounter in that row.

I'm also a solid stitcher, meaning I stitch the background also, leaving no exposed backing. Since I often work 'in-hand' I prefer the heftiness of making full cross-stitches over the long runs of backing, rather than the run across and back again, which leaves a very thin layer of floss on the back.

My normal mode of stitching is simple cross-stitch, no 1/4 or 1/2 stitches or backstitching, unless I'm doing a very detailed piece. But then too, I'm usually doing photo-charted images and to maintain detail I have a lot of confetti that I don't blend out.

My wife normally does pattern pieces, but she likes to build them up almost to 3-D by layering stitch over stitch to gain depth. Or in some cases by stitching smaller pieces and adding them over padding. One piece she was working on recently, she actually cut out sections of the backing material in order to give depth below the main surface of the material. The pieces that went behind the material were worked individually, then stitched back into place as she worked the main piece above it.

To gain certain looks, I often blend different materials with the floss, such as clear monofilament with the floss for glassware and window panes, etc. Gives them a sparkle while remaining invisible.

So there are a whole lot of things that you can do with a piece that defy all the rules.

Not always do these attempts at being different turn out the way expected, but they are interesting nonetheless. I was working one of the simpler pattern pieces that had a caned rocker in the image. I chose to use real Bamboo for the stitches that made up the seat and back. The color was right, but the finished piece looked funny. So I played FROG, rip-it rip-it and blended one strand of the Bamboo with

1 strand of floss. It came out just right then and didn't look so hard in that particular area.

I could go on forever about some things I have tried, many did not work right, some worked better than previously visualized, but for the most part, varying materials used has created some awesome pieces.

Welcome back to RCTN!

TTUL Gary

lizard-gumbo wrote:

I stitch with silk threads all the time, and I use hoops - rarely a frame. Never bothered my silks. And my hoops cover previously stitched areas on a constant basis.

I also wash my silks. Just be sure whatever you wash them in has no bleaching properties. Also, some of the overdyes may bleed, but I've used Caron Watercolors without a hitch.

I don't find all the "snagging" problems some of you seem to talk about. I've used Soie d'Alger, Caron's, Rainbow Galleries, Madeira, and a few others.

So, go ahead and use your hoop. It won't affect the silk threads. Just make sure the hoop is bound.

Dianne

Enh. You've not tried a stranded or flat silk in a satin stitch, I bet. Trust me, they snag. IME, even SdA, Waterlilies, Eterna Minitwist, and Splendor snag *slightly* more easily than cotton floss.

-- Jenn Ridley : snipped-for-privacy@chartermi.net WIP: Water Lilies, Rose Trio, Be Mine, Emperor's Coat II, Carousel Most recently Finished: Romance, Halloween Circle, Always be a Wildflower Stitching log:

I wash bright reds or very dark colors by themselves before use because I'm slightly risk-adverse but haven't had any problems. I prefer to stitch in hand and can't stand hoops but will use some aid on really large projects. I would recommend a scroll frame instead of a hoop since the frame wouldn't actually touch (and possibly snag) the silk.

I never grid anything 5 x 7 or smaller since it isn't worth the time. If the piece can be fudged easily in the event of a counting mistake, I wouldn't bother to grid it. Geometric designs (such as 4-way bargello) which have absolutely no fudge factor are worth the gridding time. I use ultra-lightweight Stren (monofilament fishing line) in bright colors.

The sturdier backs really are important only for frequently worn garments, furniture (church kneelers, piano bench covers, etc.), pillows that will be heavily used, and the like. Any piece that is stitched over two (or on Aida) and will be properly stretched and framed or made into an ornament or decorative bell-pull does not need that much thread on the back. I usually do the half-cross and then return unless I'm going for a certain effect with overdyed flosses. If the entire piece is to be stitched over one thread (linen, "evenweaves", or silk gauze), doing full crosses is recommended by Maureen Appleton so the fabric doesn't get pulled so far out of square and you have more "back" for securing thread ends.

All in all, do what is comfortable for you. As long as the are satisfied with the results and the process is pleasant, you have succeeded!

The way I look at it, the ancient Chinese wore silk, and they did not have dry cleaners.

25 years ago, I bought a fairly inexpensive silk blouse, and was not going to double the price in the first week by taking it to the dry cleaner, so I washed it by hand in cold water. The water ended up jade green, but the blouse was fine. Lasted many years with regular hand-washing in cold water. I never would trust it in the washer or with hot water, but you might do a small test piece to try in various forms of washing just to set your mind at ease.

Well, thank you all very much, ladies and gents. I especially was happy to know I could use a hoop and wash the silks. My color palette is the dark oranges to reds, so I will wash them first and see how they do. Thank you, Brenda!

Jenn, I never thought about having to wash it MORE because of hand oils when stitching in hand. Do you use gloves at all?

I also really liked Erika's suggestion to do a small patch first and wash it and see how it does. It'll also help me work out a problem I'm having with the design.

Thank you, Dianne, for suggesting to bind my hoop. I have never done that, never thought about doing it, wondered why my grandma did it when she quilted, and now I "get it."

Thank you, Jim, for your tips and tidbits...more, please? I don't like Aida (haven't used it since I was 18 and found linen quite by accident in a teensy tinsy little kit I bought on vacation to save me from having to communicate with my parents). I figured out a loop start on my own (that's a miracle--I never figure out anything on my own), so have no issues (I'm really good at guestimating necessary length), but I was surprised when I read a thread some time ago about how judges can tell and they will mark you down. I have to ask: What's the crime?

Gary, your whole post was fascinating. I'm feeling like I'm "back in beginner's where I belong" (quote from favorite movie, "Strictly Ballroom"). Can you please elaborate a little more on your wife's 3D technique, please? As for your "glass" effects, I have a photo of a very detailed beveled glass window I'd like to do, but am having a difficult time figuring out how to achieve the effect in fiber.

***

I have to warn you that now we've all opened this Pandora's box together, I'm probably going to pick your brains mercilessly. I'd like to do designing/selling (yes, one of THOSE), and the thread on computer-generated charts was very instructive.

What else do you like/not like about computer-generated charts? Would you buy a hand-drawn chart? Would you stitch a hand-drawn chart? Why or why not? Whose charts do you like and why?

***

Lastly, I have a boatload of what I'd call "junk" fabric in a box I'm never going to use. Mostly AIDA and some waste canvas and the beginnings of some UFOs that need frogging. I just don't want to look at it any more. Anybody up for getting some stash so I can clean out my space? (Believe it or not, I am NOT a packrat--cross stitch or otherwise).

Thanks again!

LG

I use 100% Nylon upholstery thread for gridding large projects. Red for centre and outer boundaries and blue for every ten stitches. This is beautiful stuff to use as it leaves no fuzzies when you pull it out and while I have occasionally pierced it using a sharp needle, usually I don't have any trouble with a Tapestry needle.

I used to grid from the centre out but found that following the way the pattern is gridded was easier. (Means less counting later which is what you are trying to accomplish by gridding in the first place)

I found that by using the two different colours of thread, I could still mark important things like the centre without getting confused with the other markings.

Sometimes it's taken me a couple of days just to grid a large project but it was definitely worth it.

I also found that sometimes I only need to grid the top left quarter of the design because I start in the top left corner and by the time I'm finished stitching that quarter, I have a firm idea of where I am in the design. This does not always work for designs that are not solid or near solid stitches. I also found gridding was nice for designs that could be stitched in separate places. ie. Marjolein Bastin's Four Seasons is a big design full of little motifs. Gridding helped me jump around with confidence when I got bored with the motif I was stitching.

Always remember to count twice when gridding though 'cause if your grid is out (like when you're stitching over two on 32ct linen and you miss just one thread) you can't rely on it.

Whew - HTH! Jeanine in Canada

Oh, but I have . . . even the Eterna silks. I hear about this snagging and I'm simply not sure what everyone is talking about. :-) Not trying to be ornery or dismissive . . . just haven't experienced it. Speaking of satin stitch, I'm working on a long/short peony in Madeira silks. Well, I ran out of one color, so it's sitting in a corner for the time being. :-) I do admit that I try to keep my nails smooth (that's a constant battle), and I don't have rough hands, so perhaps that is a problem for some people. Dianne

I dislike confetti stitches (you'll probably have 20 responses to that effect). I dislike any charts that do not come with a photograph of a real stitched model; computer-generated simulacra just don't do it for me. I also do not like the charts that just use color blocks instead of symbols to represent each floss color. Symbols used with color is fine for me. I have stitched from a couple of hand-drawn charts. If they are small and have few floss colors, it is ok because I can usually figure out any mistakes or questionable symbols. These days I'd pass on large or complex hand-drawn charts. Hand-drawn charts must use adequately dissimilar symbols and should be very clearly drawn with properly centered symbols. Lines representing backstitch or straight stitch should be much thicker/darker than the thickest and darkest gridlines on the chart.

Has anyone tried to use a 50-60% grey grid as a background for a chart instead of black? How readable is it? Does it photocopy well (for working copy)? I think that lighter grid might make the symbols and backstitch lines more visible.

As far as I can tell, the issue for purists is that once you double the floss over, the twist in the thread is running two different ways. In my experience, most people can't actually tell whether someone is absolutely consistent with the direction of the thread twist anyway, so it's not something I'm willing to lose sleep over, especially with confetti stitches. On the other hand, if you want to enter a competition where they're persnickety about that sort of thing, I suppose you take a risk if you choose the loop starts.

Love that movie...

Hand-drawn charts don't bug me as long as they're accurate. I don't usually do computer-generated charts mostly because I'm not particularly fond of pictorial designs. But then again, I don't do a lot of straight cross stitch, so my viewpoint on that probably isn't particularly useful to someone attempting to design cross stitch ;-)

Best wishes, Ericka

I've had Eterna Stranded snag on the loose linen threads on the edge of my piece. Not badly, and easy enough to remedy, but it still snags.

Once spring gets here, my hands usually have at least a couple of rough spots due to yardwork....

-- Jenn Ridley : snipped-for-privacy@chartermi.net WIP: Water Lilies, Rose Trio, Be Mine, Emperor's Coat II, Carousel Most recently Finished: Romance, Halloween Circle, Always be a Wildflower Stitching log:

Nope. I try to keep my hands clean while I'm stitching, and everything gets rinsed in cool water with very little soap. I don't really worry about it, as you can tell. :)

-- Jenn Ridley : snipped-for-privacy@chartermi.net WIP: Water Lilies, Rose Trio, Be Mine, Emperor's Coat II, Carousel Most recently Finished: Romance, Halloween Circle, Always be a Wildflower Stitching log:

That is absolutely a falsehood. A physics professor, who has her Master Craftsman in at least one embroidery technique, proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no such thing. She developed tests so that you could prove it yourself. Further, thread is wound in a double helix, and is IDENTICAL on both ends. Ask any textile engineer.

So, "purists" may look at a loop start and have notions about there being a problem, but it is a falsehood and if they are a judge, they should get a good talking to.

Even deDillmont got it wrong. :-)

I dare any judge to look down on a piece because of loop starts. I think it's time people put down this myth and made it known they aren't buying into this falsehood.

Dianne

Can someone explain why when you railroad stitches when using a loop start one strand will untwist and the other doesn't? When using two separate strands of floss this doesn't happen.

Mavia

Sure, but if it's on the judging sheet, you can (and should) protest, but you may or may not win ;-) If your goal is to enter competitions and win, sometimes you just follow the rules because you can't always change 'em. Personally, my position is that winning competitions isn't enough of a goal for me that I would change a stitching habit I liked (and like the look of) for a judge, but I'm rather stubborn that way. Lots of people think I'm crazy for stitching as much in hand as I do, but then again, the piece I entered at Woodlawn won its division even though I did the pulled work in hand ;-) So anyway, glad to hear that someone has officially declared the problem with loop starts dead. Too bad there will likely be those who'll hang on to marking down because of them, but perhaps they'll come around sooner rather than later.

Best wishes, Ericka

I proclaim my ignorance and ask you all what a loop start is? I looked in a couple of books which talked about looping thread around the needle to thread the needle - which I assumed was an acceptable method because it is on my Elsa Williams video and she was scolding people who licked the thread end (which I only do in extreme circumstances). Is there another loop start?

Thanks Margaret Midlothian, VA