a referral

Cc: rec.crafts.textiles.quilting, rec.food.cooking, misc.health.alternative,rec.pets.cats.health+behav

Your dog Cubbe ATTACKED your ONLY REAL LIFE FRIEND for standing in her SHOCK ZONE JUST LIKE HOWE she TRIED TO DO to the two neighborhood children she'd been PLAYING WITH till THEY stepped into her SHOCK ZONE.

HOWEsbreaking is INSTINCTIVE at four weeks of age, liea. For a dog to have "housebreaking" problems is UNNATURAL, second ONLY to opposite sex and owner aggression as your own FEAR AGGRESSIVE dog Cubbe has DEMONSTRATED.

That's curiHOWES, AIN'T IT, liea:

"It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got Out In The Neighborhood Leashless"

"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe. Humane is one of those hot words that people can debate all day so I won't touch that one. There are people who would call a regular chain link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the beginning, but we've come a long way since then. She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?"

Some run through it. Others get shocked and become too scared to go out in the yard anymore. Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog, because the dog got caught right in the path of the shock and will now not go near his person, won't go outside.

Just hides under a desk in the house.

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Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what it felt like to me when I got shocked by Hope's collar.

It felt like a bomb going off in my hand and forearm.

A WIZE idea, liea.

You mean so she won't find out what kinda SADISTIC LYING DOG ABUSING MENTAL CASE you are, liea?

You mean HURTING and INTIMIDATING her dog, like you done to make your own dog TURN ON YOU and ATTACK your ONLY REAL LIFE FRIEND and the neighborhood kids, liea:

Force training JERRYIZES dogs and GETS THEM DEAD.

Your own dog Cubbe TURNED ON YOU for HURTING her, has attacked the vet and bit your boy toy while restraining her for the vet to examine for her anxiety disorders.

You mean to CON-TROLL anxiety behaviors, like HOWEsbreakin problems and DESTRUCTIVE chewing.

That's kindly of you, liea. Has her dog TURNED ON HER yet like your dog Cubbe did when you first began CHOKING her, liea?

You mean ask for heelp from the lyin dog abusing punk thug coward mental cases like yourself, liea:

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

"When you lie with pigs you'll awaken STINKIN like 'm. You're JUDGED BY the company you keep. When you get BAGGED FOR LYING you're MARKED FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY

INDEEDY. They RESPOND JUST LIKE DOGS and CHILDREN do to pain fear force intimidation bribery banishment and humiliation.

Here is a video from Fred which I have a few concerns about (and maybe Fred can weigh in if he sees fit), THE SAME "FRED" that johnny would invite to heelp his shelter dogs learn RESPECT.

This is a video about Nero being taught to get on a skateboard.

or

In this video, the dog is constantly jerking his head all around. I'm not SHORE why he's doing that. If he's doing it because he is being shocked repeatedly into getting onto that skateboard, then it is my opinion that Fred Hassen is a dog abuser in the extreme. As would anyone be, no matter how much "experience" they had shocking dogs, nor how nationally "respected" they are/were.

If, HOWEver, the dog is jerking his head all around because he is happy and for no other reason, well, then, never mind. I've just never seen this kind of behavior from a dog before, so maybe Fred can explain what would cause a dog to move his head like that.

Here's a other:

Even your PALS the "DOG LOVERS" on the abuse groups were HOWEtraged by those stunts.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims, may be the most oppressive. Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - - C.S. Lewis.

"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus (525BC-456BC), Agamemnon.

"Only the unenlightened speak of wisdom and right action as separate, not the wise. If any man knows one, he enjoys the fruit of both.

The level which is reached by wisdom is attained through right action as well. He who perceives that the two are one knows the truth."

"Even the wise man acts in character with his nature, indeed all creatures act according to their natures.

What is the use of compulsion then?

The love and hate which are aroused by the objects of sense arise from Nature, do not yield to them. They only obstruct the path." - -Bhagavad Gita, adapted by Krishna with permission from His FREE copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual.

Here's your own FEAR AGGRESSIVE OUTTA CON-TROLL dog Cubbe attacking your only real life friend, an elderly OPPOSITE sex dog on the street and two children she had been PLAYING WITH till they stepped into her SHOCK ZONE:

Julia F N Altshuler ( snipped-for-privacy@dc.seflin.org) Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST

Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got her before she'd had any training and before we got the electric fence to reinforce the physical one.

It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted.

For us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her.

Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday morning. It had snowed, and the streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down a hole.

For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets daily indoor clicker training sessions.

She has perfect recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard.

Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been working on them. I haven't been as good about introducing the variable reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure that she's never tricked into coming into the house when she'd rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or praise and let her go again.

So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think I'm a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask y'all for some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don't mind criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you'll concentrate on what I should do now.

Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I'd gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she escaped straight through the front door and right in front of our noses.

She was still wearing the zap collar, but the battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the wire, and the chase ensued.

We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.

Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collar now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front door again so she could have another fun romp in the neighborhood.

I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the door.

Later in the afternoon, she was much worse about coming when called even from the backyard.

My specific questions:

How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows when she's in a confined space and when she isn't?

She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap her when she's near certain windows inside.

If I let her get zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her leash on?

I don't want her to become afraid of the front door.

What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should happen again?

Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and scoldings when we first got her.

I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the beginning, but we've come a long way since then.

She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?

Last night we had friends over for dinner with their

3 daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were having a blast clicker training her.

I was impressed with how quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed to be consistent with the clicks and treats.

Cubbe was fine with the children; she always has been. Just as they were getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug.

Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave a snarl-snap.

I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled, turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't frightened at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn't realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the submissive one in that relationship.

I let Cubbe up and all was fine.

I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now.

Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing with Cubbe the escapee?

--Lia

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From: Julia Altshuler ( snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net) Subject: Cubbe report: Chief Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST

Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie. Jim has been running into them on his morning walks with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing reports about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief.

Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs.

I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one that doesn't involve the companionship of her own species. Jim's reports were encouraging.

Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate. We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs normally do.

Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention to Chief, but there was no trouble even though she and Chief were close to each other.

Both dogs seemed more interested that their people were handing out treats (for good behaviors like SITs).

Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2 dogs would like to chase them together. He did not consult me about this hare brained scheme.

Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced fighter so I don't know if attack is the right word. She was snarfing, making growly noises, jumping on Chief, had her mouth on Chief's neck (on his back, behind his ears) and basically not looking friendly, but I think if she'd wanted to do real damage, she would have, and Chief was fine, nary a hair out of place.

Naturally with us all right there, we were able to intervene in seconds.

A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance. Jo and Chief went home. (I went with them for chat and apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe story.)

Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people.

Might she have been guarding the balls Jim brought out? Or was it the fact that we let our guard down for a few seconds and she got scared of Chief when we all weren't practically on top of her?

Or did we push her too far by leaving her and Chief together for too many minutes when a few seconds would have been better for a first try?

Or other theories?

Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting Cubbe live a dogless existence?

--Lia

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Oh, and bye the bye, liea, you can't post here nomore.

The Amazing Puppy Wizard

arghhhhhhhh, cross posting this type of post bugs the heck outta me. all you got to do is delete the excess groups on the 'to' address line when sending. argh, also delete all the excess if you absolutely 'must' post a reply here. thanks for thinking about that, folks. jeanne

This guy is psychotic and best ignored.