Lazy Girl Designs

And here's something else - I've seen purses at Craft shows that are based on her patterns. I've seen "wonder wallets" sold under that name.

I'm pretty sure no one asked her before making them to sell. For profit. Then someone comes along and actually asks permission and is told no. And the person abides by it.

Oh, and Sandy? I understand about copyright laws. I would never think of making a copy of a pattern that I bought. For anyone. I'll draw that line. But it's pretty cheesy to say that this pattern cannot be used to make product to sell. Especially for charity. She should just cut out the middleman and make and sell the purses herself if she's so afraid she might lose a sale. Most of the people I know that buy crafted products don't craft themselves, so that is a pattern she is never going to sell.

She didn't come up with a purse pattern. She wasn't the first one to make something out of fabric to hold our stuff. She came up with a simple variation on an old theme. Good on her! I applaud anyone's creativity.

But I bought that pattern and if I want to make one or two for friends or to be sold for a good cause, I'm going to do it.

I'd rather make something that someone would enjoy using than to give money. I throw money at lots of causes that I don't want to do the work for. Bake sales. I'll give you $20 if you don't make me produce cupcakes.

I don't think it's fair to purchase a finished product with the intent of copying the product. I also know that lots of products are purchased with this intent and it never gets done. Easier to buy the pattern.

I know the copyright laws are not on my side on this. But I say if you buy a pattern, you've got every right to do whatever you want with the product you make from that pattern. You don't have any right to copy the pattern and sell it or even give it away.

I won't change my mind about how I feel. I have a couple of friends that have published patterns. They recognize that people buy their patterns with the intent of actually making the product.

On the other hand, I've got tons of patterns that I've purchased that I know I am never going to make. Maybe I should request a refund.

We've beat this horse to death over and over again. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about it.

Cindy

I've also seen designers limit production for sale to something like

10 items. Any more than that and you need permissi>And here's something else - I've seen purses at Craft shows that are based

Linda PATCHogue, NY

I've just spend half an hour browsing - some really good ideas here, both the bag designs and the 'cat tricks.

Sally at the Seaside~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~uk

Dee > Here is another interesting site Leslie, but you may need to email her

You do realize that Joan Hawley isn't the only pattern designer with this policy, don't you? And, you surely don't think she's getting rich off of her patterns. And, it's not "oh, by the way" - her policy is stated right there on the pattern.

Ask Pati C. from Phx about designing patterns, what it costs to have them printed, and how little the designer makes. She had a rather long post to this group about that a few months ago. Also, the hours and hours and hours in designing, making trial products, writing and re-writing the pattern to make sure it's clearly and accurately written have to be considered.

Along those same lines, there are quite a few licensed prints that have the same stipulation on them. You can make something for yourself or as a gift from their fabrics, but you cannot make items to sell from their fabrics.

Donna in Idaho

I'm not going to get into a debate, but you have to BUY the pattern to read what her policy (or anyone else's policy) is- unless you happen to find the pattern in a store and think to read the fine print before you buy. With internet sales you are screwed..... unless you write to the designer before you buy the pattern. Also, many patterns cannot be returned for a refund. The thought is that you could have copied the pattern and then returned it for a refund.

Leslie

I've seen that too and it seems very sensible and reasonable. Of course a designer wouldn't want someone to copy their pattern and print them or give them out for free, sales would be lost. Nor would she want her pattern to be mass produced for a retail market, again pattern sales would be lost because someone could buy a cheap item already made. BUT it seems to me there would be no loss of pattern sales if permission were granted for a small number of items to be sold IF they had been made by the person who purchased the pattern. Who would even want to make the number of items it would take to depress the sales of the patterns?

And everybody who makes a purse or whatever from that pattern needs to purchase the pattern.

But how is the pattern maker losing out on a sale if I sell a purse made with that pattern?

Cindy

I know this is a hot button, but I'm going to jump in with my two cents as well. I love Lazy Girls patterns - they are up to date & attractive & if made properly, look very fashionable. I had the same thought as Leslie did a few years ago, but it was to put in a school's craft sale, with the proceeds to benefit the school. I wasn't going to make more than one or two, & the people buying them weren't likely to ever make one on their own. Her attitude was pretty much don't even bother asking, because no matter what, the answer will be no. I found it offensive & it left a sour taste in my mouth for Lazy Girls. I'm totally respective of copyright protection. She just seems to be mean spirited about allowing a few end products being made to benefit a worthy cause. Personally, if I can sew it, I would not buy it - I would buy the pattern to make it, so I'm not sure I "get" what she thinks she's losing out on.

On the other hand, I'm slowly learning how to hand appliqué & the pattern I am using is from a book called Quilting the Garden by Barb Adams & Alma Allen. I think they are Blackbird Designs. Every time an appliquer sees me working on this pattern they just fall in love with it. So, I decided it might be a great Opportunity Quilt for our guild next year. I emailed Barb Adams one evening & asked how to go about requesting permission to use her pattern for our Opportunity Quilt. She replied the same evening & gave me permission. She was so gracious. I told her I'm a beginner & need lots of practice - she invited me to email her with questions. She was so nice. I love her patterns & now I'm one of her biggest fans. And guess what - all my appliqué friends have been buying her book & I'm still only on block one of nine. She may have to go to print again at the rate I'm going:)

Pauline Northern California

I resisted the urge to buy the Wonder Wallet pattern online when so many of you were talking about it, but when I saw it for 15% off at one of the vendors at our quilt show on Friday, I bought it. It is really easy to put together -- I made two yesterday afternoon -- but there is nothing really unique in the design. It seems to me that the real value of her pattern is the clear and easy directions. Those are definitely covered by the copyright. Especially after making one, it should be easy enough to come up with something similar on your own. I think she'd have a hard time proving copyright infringement.

I know that some of the fabric companies have made the same claim that their fabrics are copyrighted and that you can't sell items made from them. It is my understanding that those claims haven't always held up in court. I wonder if the same would be true of a design as simple as that of the Wonder Wallet. I don't make stuff like that to sell, so I won't be the one to challenge it.

Julia in MN

The problem is that so many pattern designers have been burned big time.

There are entire mailing lists devoted to the photocopying and "sharing" of commercial patterns. There are ebay stores and other selling sites that do the same. It takes a lot of time to even attempt to track it and defend a copyright. Too much work considering designers are LUCKY to make $1 per unit (pattern/book)

So, some designers just say "to heck with it" and part of how they keep problems lower is to not grant any sort of permissions. You see, some guilds do things like "oh we can make these bags for our boutique". Then, instead of one person buying a pattern and making 10 bags to sell, one person buys the pattern, makes 15 copies for their quilt bee and everyone makes 10 bags to sell. You see, the designer does lose sales even if only non-sewers buy the finished products. And, we haven't even gotten to the part where guild members then approach their buddies in the tote bag bee to get copies of that pattern to make a bag for themselves.

It happens just way too often.

It happens often enough that some designers just get fed up and won't allow any sharing/selling whatever of any kind.

Some designers have tried doing a license to sell a limited number of items. Some designers try granting permission to make a small number from each pattern sold. They are all trying something to find the balance between keeping customers happy enough so their patterns sell without losing too much to the "sharers" of the world.

It's hard.

And then there are those who say "well anyone can do a tote bag so why should SHE get to copyright her pattern". "She isn't all that creative" and use that to justify their theft of a pattern. I've yet to meet one of those dishonest people who makes their own tote pattern. Nope, they gripe about lack of creativity, they steal, but they are never creative enough to just do it themselves.

marcella

With internet sales you are NOT screwed unless you don't bother to look at the website.

Right there when you click on the big "legal statement" letters.

Just open your eyes, or do you just want to rant and whine?

marcella

I guess I am an impulse shopper. I don't check out websites before I buy. There are also some very gracious designers that I have dealt with and they have allowed permission for a charitable cause (sometimes with a limited number of uses) even with such a copyright statement. (And I *was* courteous enough to ask permission rather than just go ahead and make the handbags from her patterns.) *MY* handbag patterns will be available online for free to who ever wants to use them- just like the checkbook cover. I'm just that kinda gal.

So, I guess I just want to rant and whine.....

Leslie

I get the copyright thing Marcella. I had a small retail shop with handmade items a lot of years ago. Folks would use the counter in the next shop to actually draw out copies of my original stuff. The shopkeeper there would rat them out. Really not much you can do. Folks will copy. The bad will that some designers put out probably does more damage than they realize in such a networked community such as quilting women. (no disrespect here to John, Steve, Jack and others but women talk a LOT) I tell you a problem I have with some designers. They throw together a few poorly written patterns, sell themselves off as a trunk/show lecturer and charge guilds a lot of money for a crummy program. I have seen more bad programs at my local guild in the last year for more money than I would ever have imagined. I don't' know if my guild has just had all the local types that are affordable or the programs folks didn't do so well this year but there are a lot of overpriced crappy programs I have had to sit through. I think they mostly pulled them from the SCCQG meet the teacher meeting. I don't know what kind of criteria is used for screening teachers but it seems there is none. In the meanwhile prices go up and programs get worse IMO. That is my rant. I like to whine too. Sometimes it just seems to help Taria

Marcella Peek wrote:

I'm sure it's all a real dilemma for designers....a question of balance, just as you said. There are going to be dishonest people no matter what limitation you put on a pattern; whether it's ten for sale, or ten thousand or zero. I guess it's really up to the designer to decide at what level he/she will draw the line. I certainly empathize with the creative ones who've done their research and have spent their time and money to put something out there only to be taken advantage of by others. Your example of a guild making copies and then multiple items would fall under misuse of the pattern, even with my proposal. I think as long as designers are making a pattern for someone else to make, then there are going to be problems with sales, copies, etc. If they want complete control....the best way is to manufacture the item themselves. And that would take all the fun out of being a designer. IMHO.

Howdy!

Thanks, Marcella, and Donna in Idaho, too. ;-)

I know people copy patterns & sell the crafts all the time, without permission, without even thinking to ask for permission. Doesn't make it right. I sold stuff in craft stores/malls for years, I saw other crafters steal my ideas & try to sell them (I don't think I ever lost money on that, I made nicer stuff and had a lower price and if the customer was there in front of me I talked enough to make friends and they bought even more ), I saw pirated items all the time. W/ just a few changes they could have made their own originals, been completely legal, if they cared enough about it, used a little inspiration &/or imagination. When I worked at the quilt shop one of our customers also sold her little hand-made folk dolls there on commission; one time I asked her if she'd ever been contacted by the original doll designer about this deal, as *I* knew the woman didn't want her designs copied & had a reputation for taking the pirates to court (and winning); our gal said, "Oh, I know she has a fit about copyright infringement but she'll have to catch me first." Right after that my boss asked if it was a problem, I said, "Definitely. Illegal, too." Next week the doll copier was asked to remove her wares from our store. Just because the copiers do it & "get away with it" doesn't make it right or any closer to legal. Regular readers of RCTQ must be aware of these copyright issues, not all the details, but the general idea. If in doubt, ask permission. If the answer is no, improvise, go ahead and re-invent that particular wheel ... er... pattern, design, product, and make it your own.

Btw, I was on Metallica's side against Napster, too; still am. ;->

R/Sandy

On 10/7/07 11:49 AM, in article snipped-for-privacy@news.giganews.com, "Marcella Peek" wrote:

Do I seem to be against copyrights? And for cheaters?? I assure you that's not true. I was against Napster also! As the parent of an musician and an artist, I would certainly not want their work to be stolen. Maybe my take on the specific situation wasn't clear enough. If so, that's unfortunate.

Howdy!

Nope. Didn't even mention your name. I only left in your message as I responded to Marcella's response to it. Wasn't stepping on your toes, KJ. Here, have some chocolate. I'll even break out the Lebkuchen as a peace offering (and I don't offer Lebkuchen to just anyone).

R/Sandy

Thanks Sandy and others. As a 'budding' designer, this is a difficult decision to make, and one every designer struggles with at many points in the business career. One thing that no one has mentioned that also has an impact is that when someone makes up a pattern, then sells that end product as a "______" (fill in the blank with the name of the designer/pattern/etc.) then the original designer can be held "responsible" for the quality of the product.... even though they only sold the pattern. If someone uses a pattern and makes a shoddy mess of it, with inferior fabric it still reflects negatively on the original designer. Now I know, and most designers know, that there are many people who make wonderful end products using their designs. But just one person who decides that some of the details in the instructions aren't "important", or who shortcut where you shouldn't then passes the product off as a from the designer.......... that can really hurt sales in the short run as well as long. And we have all seen examples of just this happen with all sorts of things. There have been lots of discussions in this group of people who just don't follow the directions, who have wonky quilts because they "could do it differently just as well" and so on. Would you want your name associated with it? And the problem with allowing one or two people to do "a few" for a charity ends up with having to allow everyone who wishes to to do "a few" for a charity........ and so on.

Copyright is just that, the right of the originator to decide what is done with the end products. Now that is a hot button, and can cause a lot of hard feelings if not dealt with "correctly". It is assumed that you are going to purchase a pattern to use for yourself. that is what the designer intends when publishing the pattern. But if you are going to make money from the work she did, shouldn't she get something for it??? And shouldn't she have some control over the quality of what is being sold with "her" name on it, at least by implication? That is what licensing is all about. And often there is a license in place for someone to manufacture a designer's products, which means that someone else may not make and sell the same products because it would conflict with the license.......... and so on.

I think we all have our opinions on this. Since this started with the Lazy Girl patterns, you might note that there is a very complete explanation of Joan's copyright policy on her website. And you should also remember that everything that is in print is under copyright protection. (or has been, if it is old enough it is now in the public domain) Registering copyright is recommended, but not required. And it should be assumed that unless otherwise stated, patterns are for personal use only. period. It is a bonus when a designer allows you to make and sell/raffle/etc products. Most will allow this, some don't. It is up to you as a consumer to be educated about this. Most designers are careful to explain on their products and you need to learn to check this before purchase. Sorry but that is the truth, unfortunate as it may be. The groups that have copied and reproduced without permission have spoiled it for the rest of us.

Pati, in Phx

Sandy Ellison wrote:

MMMMMMMM thanks! Just checking since it was attached to my message. Toes are fine.