OT - A Friendly Reminder

i think the charge should be more than manslaughter. the 'knowingly' i agree with. if they 'know' they are getting behind the wheel of a big metal 'weapon' that a car/van/truck, i see it as murder, not manslaughter. do they 'know' that getting hit by a car/van/truck will kill them? do they know that people die in crashes? could add this to the high school curriculum so they full well do 'know' that the cars they want so badly to drive are indeed a 'weapon' that will kill if they are not sober and cross the line, go too fast or just dont have proper control of the car as a result of having been drinking anything at all. show them all the graphic pix, take them to the hospital to see the victims, take them to the morgue to see the dead people who died cuz some idiot thot he could drive having been drinking anything at all.

i probably have it all wr> nzlstar* wrote:

You're not getting carried away with anything, Jeanne ... it IS murder (though everyone that I know who drinks would argue - apparently, you don't want to label something like that as murder if you know that one day, you could be the one standing in the defendant's box). In several cases, a charge of murder in the first degree (no premeditation) was sought after and gotten.

Though, to be honest, I don't think that's common. I think too many people are afraid to classify it as murder because I think a lot of people have tested the waters, so to speak, and driven intoxicated. They, like I said above, know too well that one day THEY may end up sitting at the defendant's table.

Too, too many people only see drinking as harmless, just another way to "relax" - but it's one of the only ways that I know of to "relax" that can ruin lives or destroy them.

:(

Hugs, Connie

Yes, you have it right. "Murder" consists of the mental intention (mens rea) to kill and then the physical action of killing someone (actus reus). Mens rea and actus reus constitute the essential ingredients of criminal liability at common law. (Statutory offences do not require proof of mens rea - the physical action of the crime is enough.) Therefore the actus reus of both murder and culpable homicide/manslaughter are the same; it is the mental element of mens rea that differs. Juries are told that "culpable homicide" is the unlawful killing of a human being in circumstances which do not amount to murder.

-- Jo in Scotland

Right ... (acting like I knew all that already - but I didn't!) but I think Jeanne's gist is that the driver *knows* that he's going to a bar ... he

*knows* that he's going to drink ... and he *knows* that he's going to drive home. Wouldn't that be mens rea? Knowing that your actions may likely cause the injury or death of another??

Like this: a man likes to build bombs (not for any malicious pursuit) just for the fun of it. Illegal, of course, but then, so's drinking and driving. He builds a bomb and for some reason, the meter reader, postman, etc, someone, ends up dying because the bomb accidentally goes off. Wouldn't that be murder??

Maybe I'm just being a PITA about this ... but I have to be honest here ... I'm not much of a drinker. I think I drink wine perhaps once a year (and on special occasions like our best friend's wedding - I toasted them with one glass and couldn't even finish it). So I'm not inclined to see DUI as an innocent mistake or mere accident. To me, like the guy with the bomb, you KNOW there's a possiblity that YOUR actions could kill someone. If you take that chance, and lose, you should pay up. :(

Please forgive me if I offended anyone - twas not my intent!

Hugs!! Connie :)

not sure i followed all that, Jo. the latin thru me off a bit. so if you drive after you've been drinking is it murder? is it something else? just did a quick scan thru google and different places/states-in-usa seem to have different laws regarding this. here in nz it is called vehicular manslaughter, again i reckon they got it all wrong. the car is surely a massive metal weapon when being driven by someone with impaired (sp?) judgement after drinking. so being in charge of that weapon, if you mess up and kill someone, i call it murder not manslaughter. seems some states think being an idiot behind the wheel is enough defense to only charge them with manslaughter. the mind boggles, j.

"Johanna Gibs> Yes, you have it right. "Murder" consists of the mental intention

The drunk driver will put forward the defence that he did not intend to kill someone. He only intended to drive home, (however reckless that was). I know different countries and states have different laws regarding this. However, the English common law system is widespread throughout the English speaking world/former colonies, so I hoped my explanation was broad enough. Anyway, the experimental bomb case illustrates "duty of care". Sure, the bomb enthusiast didn't intend to injure anyone, but he had a duty of care to those around him. The same could be said for the person who drinks and then is in charge of a motor vehicle. Intoxication is not a defence in Scotland.. not sure about other jurisdictions. So you have to take into account the intent of the driver, the duty of care the driver had to those in the vehicle and on the road, and the fact that intoxication is no defence. It isn't surprising that the laws of different places vary slightly as to what the penalty for causing a death by driving while intoxicated should be.

-- Jo in Scotland

Very astutely explained!!! Thank you, Jo!!!

I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rather strong views on drunk driving!!!

Quilty hugs!! Connie :)

There's a program called Every 15 Minutes. The student government at Sparks High School in the Washoe County School District in Nevada insisted that the school participate in this program last year. Talk about an impressive program! Parents of an innocent victim were there -- their son had been killed by a wrong-way drunk driver on the highway that goes through Reno. Another speaker was a young man who killed his own brother, a passenger in the vehicle he was driving when he was drunk.

Every 15 minutes they took kids out of class. I guess there were about 30 kids involved. These kids were ghosts on the second day of the program. Local police, fire department, and medical personnel participated. A simulated crash was held outside the school on the neighborhood street. A professional from a local TV station made a video. It showed the process of declaring kids dead, taking the drunk driver to jail, etc. The kids in the video were kids from the school. A funeral director was also part of the final presentation. Parents were invited to the final presentation.

We live in a 24-hour town where drinking and gambling are the main "industry."

Here's one for ya:

Friday night I was sitting quietly at the computer when I heard a crash. My brother-in-law jumped up and screamed "call 9-1-1", so we did.

Turns out some drunken teenager had flown through the subdivision and, after sideswiping two cars, slammed face-first into mine.

The two kids in the car were not wearing seatbelts.

The passenger ran off into the subdivision, presumably scared he would be given a field-sobriety test. I'm certain he would have failed, if the driver had been judged to be the "more sober" of the two....

My car's out of commission. Makes is oh so easy to get to work, and getting to classes should be fun once the semester starts.

He had no insurance.

Luckily, we have full coverage. Still, it's aggravating that two little underage snots chose to go partying and joyriding around, wrecking any possibility of my being able to actually relax over the break.

I keep hoping 2008 will be better, but this isn't starting the new year off right.

Anastasia

--PLEASE, folks.......either don't drink, or designate a COMPLETELY SOBER DRIVER.

ah ok, ta, Jo. not too sure what the penalty or defence allowed here adds up to. i've got my opinion on what it oughta be tho.

i'm just not up to snuff here > The drunk driver will put forward the defence that he did not intend

:( sorry that it happened to your front yard. without insurance, if he is found guilty, can you not take him to civil court for damages? i guess it would have to be your insurance company that does that tho. why do they let folks drive without insurance. had an idiot here on new years day evening, driving a motorcross bike without lights turned on down the beach at 9:30pm. hit two 13yo girls sitting together, thru one 15metres down the beach. both had serious injurys. one (4 days short of her 14th birthday) was taken to hospital by helicoptor and died early the next morning. the other is stable with broken arm and cracked pelvis. the boy driver is 15yo and had minor injurys. i hope they nail his ass to the wall. he deserves nothing less. he had just been told by someone to slow down and immediately took off so fast that gravel flicked into the faces of those nearby. this was about 15mins before the girls were hit. the man said he was definitely showing off. so much for his

15m> Here's one for ya:

I can't remember the name but the jr. high did a similar thing here. They had the wrecked cars, the emergency folks even a helicopter that airlifted one of the kids. I was invited to be there and I can tell you from my point of view it felt sort of real and very dramatic. As a mom it was really scary to see what can happen. I think it would have gone over better for high schoolers but the principal at the jr.hi had lost two her best friends to a drunk driver.

I am not into drinking and gambling, probably why I really hate to go to Vegas. I just don't get the fun of it. Most drunks are not fun to be around. Taria

Kay Ahr wrote:

OMG, that's horrible!!! I, too, hope they nail his butt to the nearest wall (sans anesthetic). But, and I'll bet I get flamed for this, I hope the parents get penalized, too. Somewhere, somehow, they failed to teach him that actions have consequences. And that omission killed a child. :(

Now, his parents could be the most wonderful, considerate people in the world - if that's the case, then I apologize for what I just said. But if they're as lovely as he is, they deserve to be punished for raising such a weenie. >:(

Hugs & Happy New Year!! Connie :)

couldnt agree with ya more. what the heck was a 15yo doing driving a motocross bike anyhow. i wonder if he'd even got his learners license yet. hope he enjoyed his one night of riding cuz i dont know that he'll ever be allowed to drive again with that on his record, i hope not anyhow. he just does not deserve the privelege. the parents also should also get some punishment other than having to deal with their son the idiot. at the very least they were negligent by not having knowledge of his activity there. btw, it was new years eve, not the first of jan as i said before. :( j.

"SewVeryCreative" ...

I used to think that I could go to parties with my friends and just not smoke or drink. But I found that having conversations with high or drunk "friends" was a waste of energy. I don't bother going to "parties" anymore.

Unfortunately in my school district we are "expected" to attend staff parties where a lot of drinking occurs. At one middle school where I taught, you were supposed to attend and bring a bottle of good wine to share. The principal wrote an email on Monday morning expressing disappointment that there was so much wine leftover. Even though I am "expected" to go for team-building purposes, I don't. If these teachers can't build their teams without booze, then I have to wonder what kind of role models they are. I don't want to see which staff members are getting drunk. And then driving!

Which reminds me -- I read about a school principal in the Indianapolis area who was stopped for DUI and wasn't charged. I used to live in Indy, so sometimes I read the Indianapolis Star online.

We had a car accident in my front yard the first week of November. At 2 am I heard someone speeding towards my house, then brakes, followed by multiple crashes. I called 911, DH ran outside.

Two of the kids were yelling at the third boy, "No names, don't tell anyone our names!". Then they ran up my driveway, right past my husband, and out into our backyard, leaving their friend behind.

The police, fire, rescue showed up and sent for the mother of the slightly injured boy, who claimed he didn't know the other boys' names.

The little idiot who was driving forgot that his car license plate was still on the car as was his registration in the glove compartment. He was later arrested for leaving the scene of an accident and resisting arrest.

They were driving 100 mph towards my house, hit a turn in the road, skidded 200 feet, completely broke off my 20 ft. Hemlock, hit my mailbox, hit a boulder which was found 50 feet away the next day, by then they were sideways, flew between the mailbox and a group of Birch trees, completely broke off 3 Pine trees, then they hit a 50 ft Oak, 8 feet off the ground, spun around 180 degrees, flipped upside-down and landed impaled on another Pine tree. They had to crawl out of a squished window to escape and nary a scratch on any of them.

A couple of hours later the State Police showed up with their dogs and tracked the boys through my yard, eventually finding one "asleep" in his bed. His mom never even knew he had been out of the house.

The next few days saw a bevy of local teens coming to my yard to gawk at the damage. I went outside every time I saw kids so I could lecture them about reckless driving. I never knew if alcohol was involved, it didn't seem so. I told them all that they were lucky that they weren't here visiting 3 little white crosses in the ground, as this could have turned out so differently. The mom of one of the boys came to look for her son's missing hat. I told her she was lucky not to be looking for her son's head.

Now here's the weirdest part and it'll give you goosebumps. A few days later DH and I saw someth under a picture of a little girl

"Sara was killed in an automobile accident in February of 2001. Sara was lost because of an inexperienced teenage driver. Please make sure your teenager is ready to drive themselves before the keys are handed over. Life is too short to lose your loved ones. Sara you're a very special person and you'll always be remembered with all the families love. Happy 22 birthday."

The child's name is Sara Bouffard from Vt. Seeing as the card was hanging at the starting point of the accident, and I had been lecturing the kids for a couple of days, I took this as a sign that Sara was the guardian angel to these 3 boys who, by all rights, should have died in my front yard.

I still get shaky when I think of all of the police, dogs, firemen, and rescue people running all over my property. There are still car parts out there, now buried under the snow. We weren't able to fix any damage before the weather turned bad. We received a check for $4,000 from his insurance company.

Denise

QI

Denise, your story gave me goosbumps. I agree; Sara was watching over thsoe kids.

-Irene