Aztec/Maya and the lathe?

Apparently the wheel was not known to them, though I believe there are known wheeled toys from the Aztec.

It's a bit of a problem for Mormon theology, as the wheel would have been well-known to the Israelites. It's also a bit strange that the "aliens" never passed along the modest technology of the wheel while teaching the Amerinds all the advanced math and astronomy. Perhaps their "chariots" had no wheels, in spite of Von Daniken..

"chariots" had

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I don't know about the \Aztecs, but the Myans did indeed know about a Wheel. It was a Holy symbol, and therefore, they would not use it for anything a mundain as a tool. Their calander is round. The Other Bruce

Well no kidding, being made of stone and all. How else to move it around! Maybe they didn't know about paper?

snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

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Is a circle a wheel?

With no axle, it's just a circle.

I seem to recall that part of the problem with the Mesoamerican civilizations and the wheel was that they did not have a large draft animal of any kind and that soil conditions were such that in the absence of something with the brute force to pull a cart through the mud a man could carry more on his back than in a wheeled conveyance.

But that recollection is very vague.

Of course the Spanish had oxen, mules, and horses, so they did not have this same problem.

On the other hand the Mesoamerican civilizations apparently did not use the potter's wheel, so perhaps the idea of using the wheel in a tool did not occur to them.

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round is a circle but a circle does not a wheel make

BTW - they also "invented" zero

CBII

>

With no spokes, or other means to attach it to an axle, it is a circle.

That's obviously incorrect. Never mind large draft animals -- anyone who's ever used a wheelbarrow or a two-wheel dolly knows that a man can carry more on a wheeled conveyance than he can on his back. You don't need draft animals to make wheels useful.

With an advanced astronomical calendar, it's almost certainly a wheel. It seems fairly impossible that they would not be aware of the wheel, but it is possible that they did not use them for religious reasons. Look at Islam- in many cases, it is absolutely taboo for a Muslim to create an image of any living creature, hence the geometric art that is so prevelent in that society. It's not that these folks are unaware that they could make a picture of a person, it's just that they feel that they are commiting hubris by trying to replicate the works of Allah, IIRC. The same logic applies to the Mayans and Aztecs.

I don't know about turned wood, but I'm pretty sure they had turned pottery, so it's quite possible they had lathes as well. It's always possible for even the most devotely devoted peoples to find a way around their scripture when necessity calls. Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

There is an awful lot we don't know about previous civilizations and a lot of what we have thought we knew has been revised multiple times since we first "knew" it. Take a close look at some of the 'religious artifacts' and you will see that some will produce a couple volts if you fill them with vinegar. Was that how they were used? We don't know ... and that's why they are lumped in with all the other 'religious artifacts'.

Bill

I seem to recall a National Geographic article many, many years ago in which they described a shipload of batteries that had been discovered. The thing is the ship sank about 2000 years ago. The speculation was that the Greeks had discovered electroplating--the batteries were built into amphorae, but there wasn't much else they were likely to be but batteries given the conformation.

They were certainly protein-limited by their lack of domesticated animals. Makes you think about the role of nutrition in civilization in a whole new light, and the role of domestication in providing nutrition as well as a way to haul it to storage.

I've read more than one case for the collapse of the Maya based on nutrition. The cultivation they seem to have had down pretty well, with the same sort of mound and ditch found elsewhere, but of course they didn't have the variety of protein in their diet to remain free of disease without some meat.

Yep.

Sorry, but I don't buy that. Collectively, modern North Americans eat

*waaaaay* more meat than is needed to maintain good health. It's easy to suppose that people who eat a lot less meat than we do are therefore not eating enough.

It's also utterly mistaken.

Further, there are other sources for meat besides large domesticated animals. The native peoples of North America seemed to do just fine by hunting bison, whitetail deer, rabbit, and squirrel, among others; by setting snares for birds; and by fishing. Granted, the native peoples of Central America didn't have quite the same ready supply of *large* game animals, but there certainly were other sources of animal protein available to them. Don't underestimate fish, either.

Nope, as I already pointed out. A man with a wheelbarrow can carry a whole lot more than a man with a backpack. You absolutely do *not* need large draft animals in order to make wheels useful.

It depends if they roll it to go from A to B.

A circle only exits in a flat plane with no depth. The calendar had a depth to it.

If depth is not important, then the question is "when does a circle become a cylinder?" For instance a circle of zero depth with a diamerter of four feet, is now stretched out to a depth of eight feet. Clearly this is now a cylinder. It got to be a cylinder by passing through the wheel stage.

Now lets all go to ebay and buy pen blanks.

No the point is the soil conditions.

Also there are examples in history of smaller armies defeating larger better armies because they lured the dummies into soft soil and their cannons and horses stuck.

Doug Miller wrote:

(ahem...) Getting back to central american civilization and turning... A friend noticed I was into turning and gave me what he described as a "chocolate stirer" he said was used by the Mexicans, and the Aztecs before them to stir their chocolate. A spindle turning, it looks sort of like a fluted ball on the end of a stick, with some decoration. About 10" long and 1-1/2" diameter at the ball. The friend said he got it a Disneyland in 1955, where he watched a Mexican gentleman hand turn this piece in minutes with nothing more than a block of wood with a depression in it (tailstock) held between his feet, a stringed bow (headstock) and some kind of tool which he kept sharp by "grinding" on the cement he sat on. Wasn't clear what he used for a tool rest, if any, or how he juggled all the pieces while turning, wish I'd been there to see it. So a wheel is not required to turn wood.