finishing

IMO wax is good enough.

Lots of opinions here. Personally, I want my plates and goblets to last a while and in good condition. However, this is WOOD we're talking about here and with regular use, it'll show it no matter the finish.... unless you wrap it in a really thick coating of something (epoxy) in which case you might as well just have made it in plastic to begin with.

With that said, I do recommend a light epoxy coating on the inside of the cup of the goblet to resist the alcohol (if any) and staining. It's tough to get it even and looking (or more importantly feeling with the lips) good but it'll hold up.

For the plate and the rest of the goblet, I would recommend this:

1) A penetrating / drying / hardening oil first. Tung, Walnut, Boiled Linseed (BLO). Apply and reapply until saturated and no more will soak in over a course of days. This will protect the wood somewhat if the finish fails (or if you fail to finish ).

2) A light film-building urethane and keep applying it until you get some buildup OR some lacquer. The lacquer will protect it better but many people don't do lacquer so the urethanes usually win out just because of convenience/experience.

3) A final buff of carnauba wax. It's hard and will be your first line of defense against use. It will wear off eventually (it takes awhile!) but it can be reapplied easily just by buffing more on. It's also fairly oil/water resistant. Any wax will allow moisture to seep through to some degree but if you have a moisture resistant surface under it (the urethane or lacquer) then it won't show like just a simple wax finish. It takes a nice shine with buffing but can be made into a matt finish, if you choose, by just very lightly rubbing with some #0000 steel wool (maybe some mineral oil for lube if you want) after application.

My personal finish on useful exotic-wood goblets (churches mostly) is BLO / Lacquer / Carnauba.

- Andrew

how long do you let your item set before it is used?

I have bottle of BLO and was considerng it on food use bowls. But, I wanted to see what the opinion here is.

thanks.

Rob

I keep applying the BLO for a few days until the item is saturated and has penetrated as much as it's going to. I let it sit for another day or two. I wipe off the BLO and keep doing this for another day or until no more seeps out. I let it sit to dry 3 days (sometimes more or less depending on environmental conditions). I don't want the BLO to bleed out and I want it to dry enough before I put on the lacquer.

After the lacquer, I let the piece site another couple of days and then buff. Total time is about 10 days with this method. Once you apply the lacquer, you don't need to let it set because of the toxic nature of the BLO (assuming it is the chemical drier type of BLO and not the actual Boiled type). The BLO has been allowed to set and setup (at least mostly) with the lacquer then sealing it in.

If I were to just use BLO and nothing on top (wax included), then I'd wait a couple of months to be safe. But I wouldn't be doing that anyway. In that case, I'd use a quickly foodsafe method. It's not nearly as durable though and that's what you said you wanted.

- Andrew

ahhh...

I did not realize that there were two methods of BLO a "natural" or "boiled" method and a "chemical" or "synthetic" method.

This appears to be the source of my confusion. IF I was to use "natural" BLO, I would assume that it would be safe as it is really boiled oil from a food product. But, if I was to use a "chemical" BLO, I would have to let it sit for a long time. Correct?

It looks like the Raffan method is what I will be using (Mineral Oil and Beeswax) as that is the fastest and easiest method to get it "close" and let natural handling do the rest.

Rob

I believe that the "chemical" method uses heavy metals as driers. I wouldn't trust this as a food surface.....

Yes, that's correct abou the two types of "Boiled". Originally and in extremely few cases these days, the oil was heated in manufacturing to aid in the polymerization process for the "drying" and hardening of the oil after application. Nowadays, chemical driers are used to do this. There is some debate as to whether you really need to let things sit or how long to let them sit because of these chemicals or not. I choose to not take chances and let these kinds of things sit until *I* feel safe in MY products for myself or anyone else.

I use the Mineral Oil / Beeswax mixture myself for the majority of my kitchenware items (salad hands / bowls, spurtles, honey dippers, scoops, handles, etc.). It's not durable at all so I don't use it for the "good" stuff like plates or drinking items where I think there will be silverware used and the item is intended to be looking good for a longer period. Salad bowls aren't that big of a deal. At least not mine! I make up my own oil/wax sticks and rub those on as needed and wipe off / lightly buff later with a rag.

- Andrew

I have a bottle of OLD linseed oil. at least 30 years, it says its boiled, do you think it has chemical dryers in it? what do you use where it needs to look good for a long time? how about soaking whatever it is in tung oil, or just soaking the outside and sanding the inside up to some really fine sandpaper(wet&dry stuff using beeswax as a lubricant. I read this somewhere, and thought it was a good method. in article veKdnY snipped-for-privacy@centurytel.net, AHilton at snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote on 1/21/04 8:39 PM:

Andrew, I don't think you're totally correct on the heating to get the "boiled" aspect. I read/heard the technique was to bubble a gas (nitrogen perhaps? - I don't recall) up through the linseed oil - the bubbling of the gas appears as though the oil is boiling, but heat isn't used in the process. I don't know if this is correct, but I believe the info came from Flexner or Dresdner.

My sources agree with you that chemical driers are commonly used today and the ingredient list should indicate this. Another fine source for what's in products is to consult the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) - an online US govt. site has these available for most products (do a web search to find the URL as I don't appear to have it any longer).

_____ American Association of Woodturners Cascade Woodturners Assoc., Portland, Oregon Northwest Woodturners, Tigard, Oregon _____

You're thinking of BLOWN Linseed Oil, Owen. They "blow" air through the fluid at around 80C to increase the viscosity. It's mainly used in the ink, paint and caulking industry. It also dries faster than the Boiled Linseed Oil types but isn't even used as much as the truely heated (let's just call it "Heat-Bodied" like the industry does) Linseed Oil in wood finishes is.

The "Boiled" in BLO seems to come from the early days of using the chemical driers when they'd really get the temperature up there in order to incorporate the driers. From what I understand, that's no longer necessary. The "Boiled" could also have come from the use of Stand Oil in most formulations of BLO (which it is still used today). Stand Oil is made by heating Linseed Oil at very high heat (upwards of 200C!) and no oxygen. Thus, it seems to boil. You get a very viscous, clear and slow drying oil as an additive to other oils.

Notice that in my message that you quoted below and I give as reference, I never said that the non-chemical-drier BLO was actually boiled. It's just heated. There are two ways that I've done this myself. One is to create what's called a "sun thickened" linseed oil by distilling raw linseed oil and just letting it sit out in the hot sun for a few days. You'll get a more-polymerized linseed oil that dries faster than raw linseed oil but is non-yellowing (because of the distilling really) and is a shinier finish. The other way is to really cook the raw linseed oil over a long period but not let it get too hot or you'll end up with a gooey mess. This is a good way to add different ingredients if you want too.

- Andrew

Comments inline below...

Probably. That was only the 70's. Are the contents still really runny or are they more like syrup? What brand?

In high-use situations: Lacquer. Otherwise, I just use whatever's easiest and within reach at the time. Wax finishes will collect dust and smoke, etc. over time so those need to be maintained. It really depends on more factors.

I love using Tung Oil. It has good and bad points like everything else. I'm not sure I'm reading that paragraph correctly but here's a shot.... If you're going to finish the outside of something then you should finish the inside as well. Especially a "soaking" finish like Tung. It'll seep to the inside anyway probably. If you've used an oil and are sanding with it, then there's no need for another lubricant like beeswax. I don't normally use a lubricant with my sanding (at least not on wood). Too messy and the sanding takes longer. Use a good sandpaper and a light touch instead. Also, if you have a wood that has large pores (red oak .... uggggh!) where a lot of people use the sanding-with-lubricant idea, just fill in those pores first.

In some situations I do use a very light drying oil with my high-grit sanding. As in the case of your Tung Oil mentioned above or another drying oil, I'll use the sandpaper to generate the heat necessary to accelerate the curing of the oil in the wood. I don't do it often but I do sometimes.

- Andrew

: This appears to be the source of my confusion. IF I was to use "natural" : BLO, I would assume that it would be safe as it is really boiled oil from a : food product. But, if I was to use a "chemical" BLO, I would have to let it : sit for a long time. Correct?

It's somewhat controversial about the toxicity of the driers in cured BLO. It seems people are uncomfortable with using it in food-contact sittuations, but I do not think there is any factual evidence that it's harmful.

However ... there's a line of no-driers-added BLO made by Tried and True, which you can get from Jeff Jewitt's website:

's gotten excellent reviews in several magazines. -- Andy Barss

Why not go direct to the manufacturer?

Ecnerwal wrote: : In article , : Andrew Barss wrote: :> However ... there's a line of no-driers-added BLO made by Tried and True, :> which you can get from Jeff Jewitt's website:

: Why not go direct to the manufacturer?

:

Because they don't sell retail. -- Andy

"...and orders for our products in gallon (or larger) quantities should be directed to Tried & True Wood Finishes."

That's a minimum order size, not a refusal to sell retail, as I read it.

They also provide a list of retail outlets for small quantities, some of which may be more convenient than Mr. Jewett for some folks here. His site is also listed there (I have no preference for or against him). But I might stop by the guy in North Yarmouth the next time I'm in Maine, too. Then again, I also have friends in T'Burg, and a gallon is not too much BLO.

Why do you use BLO if you are going to lacquer the piece? Like furniture building, I would think you would just put on a coat of sanding sealer and then lacquer, or just lacquer, period. I still new to woodturning, so don't yet understand the differences between finishes I have used for years in woodworking and woodturning.

Earl

There's no difference, in this case, between the finishing process of woodworking and woodturning. There are some differences in finishing between the two, sometimes, but the basics are still the same.

The original poster gave the requirement that a plate and goblet was "actually going to be used" and needed a "best finishing material". This suggests a finish that's going to last through, at least, silverware use and liquids of all types. The silverware is a tough one as it leads to scratches and gouges in the wooden item.

Therefore, I suggested a penetrating, drying/curing, and hardening (or at least as much as an oil, even a hardening oil, is going to) oil as a first step under the lacquer. Why the oil under the lacquer (or a filming finish as I noted in my response to him/her) ? It's that blasted silverware use. Lacquer, as good as it is against lots of foods, liquids and other common foodstuffs, it can't resist hard use and sharp utensils forever. Once the lacquer is "broken", you'll be leaving bare wood defenseless. The underlying oil (BLO in your case) will still be protecting the wood and fairly deeply. You mentioned just putting a sanding sealer under the lacquer. It doesn't penetrate or dry/harden/protect like the oil will or nearly as deeply into the wood. A side, but still important use, of an oil in this case is the fact that it imparts such a depth and beauty to the wood under the lacquer. The use of BLO alone isn't enough to give the protection needed in this case.

For a TV stand, china hutch, or a woodturned hollowform, it's not as critical an issue. For something that you're going to be intimately sharing your food/wine with and staring at while avoiding your wifes' intense glare because you forgot that all-too-frequent wedding anniversary, it's most certainly a critical issue. At least for me and my customers ... and my wife.

So, in a word... protection.

If you've looked at different finishing techniques, products and/or combinations in the last few years, I highly recommend doing so. So many things have changed and been added in the past 5 - 7 years. Not everything, of course. Like I said above, the basics are the same.

- Andrew

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I hadn't thought about the silverware scratching the lacquer and leaving bare wood. I thought maybe that was the way you always did it and I was missing something. If it looks richer I think I will try it because I must admit I'm partial to lacquer for no good reason but that I love the smoothness and feel of it. Personally, I don't think anything else compares. But I'm not trying to open up a can of worms. I just like the look of it. I have been trying other things, though, and will continue to do so.

Thanks, Earl