HF 34706 lathe

Dominic, First thing, if you bought their least expensive tool set (usually around $12.00), then take it back to HF, and exchange for their high speed steel set (about $35.00). Or if you'd like, keep the set you got and use them for sharpening practice until you get the basics of sharpening down, then get the high speed steel set.That plus a 3/8 or 1/2 inch bowl gouge will give you a good basic set that you can add to as your requirements dictate.

Then go to Woodcraft or similar store and look through their woodturning books. What you want to look for are the ones on basic turning. Personally, I like the ones by Richard Raffan, but Keith Rowley, Dale Nish, Ernie Conover, and others are recommended by various members of this group. Pick one and read it cover to cover, then go out to practice what you think you read, then go back and re-read some more. Study the pictures, angles, body positions, etc. Then go to the American Association of Woodturners site,

As far as the lathe you bought, it's probably the best lathe per dollar that you can buy. It's not a great one, but it is adequate for a beginning turner. A lot of people started either with it or the Sears monotube, and after learning more about turning, were able to make an informed decision about a better machine. Good luck.

Ken Moon Webberville, TX =================================

Personally,

Canton Twp?

My Sister in Law lives out there, but I've missed going last two times we passed through - important family stuff, y'know. Been to the one in Sacramento (mom) more than there. Maybe this summer.

ok I don't want to start buying a bunch of stuff I don't really need but I have been browsing around and I see that HF has a duplicator on sale for

Dom, don't worry about things like the duplicator or steady rest at this time, there will be plenty of things to spend your money. For right now, just waste some wood until you have enough experience under your belt to make informed decisions about further purchases.

Terry Poperszky

hello again and thanks for the replies so far, well I finally unpacked the lathe and set it up on a work bench instead of on the stand it came with . I cleaned it up with some mineral spirits and it looks pretty good. but I do have some questions regarding turning for the first time. I put a piece of oak between centers to try it out, set the lathe to lowest speed and took a the 3/4" gouge and im not to impressed with the results so far. should I be running the piece faster? running my thumb over the gouge it doesn't feel all that sharp, maybe these tools need to be sharpened. im thinking today may be a good day to go to woodcraft and get a tape or book on basic turning and sharpening. thanks again Dom

I bought the same set at HF, but mostly for the purpose of learning to sharpen HSS tools. They had no edge to speak of out-of-the-box. While my technique needs LOTS of improvement, I did get two of the gouges in pretty fair shape, and they cut almost as well as my Sorby gouges of the same dimensions. Sharpen 'em and experience the *wow factor*.

Max

================================ Dominic, Sharpening with a jig has a fairly short learning curve, and will reproduce consistent results. However, there will be a time when you want to learn freehand sharpening, both to produce a specific grind not available from a jig and to increase your sharpening speed. That learning curve is not nearly as fast. I've been freehand sharpening for 50 years and I still learn new techniques. Ken Moon Webberville, TX

This was the topic of a thread just completed earlier this week. There are lots of systems for sharpening, and no doubt some are better than others. Andrew Hilton gave good advice in recommending a basic 8" grinder with 1" wide friable aluminum oxide (pink, white, blue, whatever) wheels of 60-80 grit on one side and 120 on the other. I'm currently using a very inexpensive 6" Delta grinder with those hard gray wheels. They hollow grind the tools badly, but I've been able to hone them relatively flat with sanding discs on my disc sander (Andrew apparently uses something similar for sharpening). The slow, wet wheels, such as the Tormek, are appealing, but apparently cause rust and a mess, and cost quite a bit more. My point is, even though my system is probably the worst possible, it does work, and I've got sharp tools to show for it, even if they aren't pretty. I just ordered a Delta GR450 grinder today which, with 8" wheels, should lessen the hollow grinding somewhat.

Do a Google search and read Andrew's answers. Others may have additional comments.

Max

I've seen twice now, this comment about Tormeks causing rust and a mess. Neither you, nor Andrew who started this silliness appear to have ever owned a Tormek. I have, and I've never had any problem with rust, nor mess. Frankly, I find a dry grinder spewing abrasive particles and metal dust in the air to generate far more mess than a Tormek.

There are many approaches to sharpening, and many opinions, most of which are held by persons who have had little experience with more than one or two systems.

I have both high speed and low speed dry grinder systems. I will soon be doing a comparative review of the Woodcut Tru-grind jig and the new Kelton Sharpening jigs. I also have the Ellsworth jig. I have a Tormek with all of its jigs. I have two verticle belt sanders (one of which is mounted to the original Lee Valley Power Sharpening System). I have both the new and old versions of the Lee Valley Power Sharpening System. I also have the full range of nonpowered sharpening devices, including waterstones, diamond stones, oilstones and ceramic stones. About the only sharpening technique I have not explored (but hope to do so soon) is the use of diamond slurries.

Of the bunch, I find the superior unit for maintaining turning gouges to be the Tormek (for flat blade bevels I prefer the new version of the Lee Valley Power Sharpening System, for flat blade backs it is the Shapton Stones).

I'm not interested in trying to convert anyone to any particular system, but I do feel a need to correct misinformation.

Lyn

Maxpr>

No "misinformation" given, merely a difference of opinion. Water, carelessly used in the vicinity of iron/steel _will_ cause rust. Further, water held in the vicinity of dust-producing areas will collect it as surely as oil in the same vicinity.

Regardless your oft-repeated resume, there are other ways of removing steel from a tool, and none are intrinsically "superior."

T'was not my intent to malign the Tormek or any of the other wet stone systems. I was simply repeating info I had received from an individual with far greater experience than my own.

You have more invested in your sharpening systems/aids than many of us have in everything we own related to turning. I have no argument with that, but one point I made to Andrew is that the Tormek basic system is very costly (roughly $390), and after adding the various jigs and aids one can rack up a substantial bill, all for the purpose of accomplishing something that some skilled individuals achieve freehand and inexpensively. To my way of thinking, the Tormek is one of those luxury items that some choose to purchase, but many simply cannot afford. There are less expensive means of grinding and honing tools into usable form.

Both are costly systems. The question of what I used was posed by an individual who had just purchased a lathe from Harbor Freight at less than $200 and HSS tools for $35. Considering his initial investment, it would seem ill conceived to suggest a Tormek or Lee Valley system. I would love to have either one, or both. Andrew convinced me that neither, while desirable, is necessary.

Max

"nor Andrew who started this silliness"

Oh, please, Lyn. You give me far too much credit here. Do a web search, especially related to knife makers and their own use of the Tormek and other wet grinders, for far older references to this "silliness" about water + steel = rust equation.

"appear to have ever owned a Tormek."

Which alludes to a previous post of mine: "I have never specifically used the Tormek..." Amazing bit of detective work there, Lyn! But, see below.

"Frankly, I find a dry grinder spewing abrasive particles and metal dust in the air to generate far more mess than a Tormek."

A different mess with different remedies. Unfortunately, the Tormek (yes, I found a friends Tormek Supergrind 2006 last night and gave it try so I could say that I have, indeed, used it now although only 4 hours worth) doesn't keep the metal dust or abrasive particles out of the air entirely with its water bath. It's easy to see the particles of steel and abrasive coming off the tool and wheel while grinding and especially while truing the wheel. It's nothing like a dry grinder but it still creates this mess. I find the Makita and similar wet grinders with a running water supply over it's entirety to be far less of a problem IN THIS REGARD. They are worse about slinging water around though but the Tormek does this to a lesser degree as well. It's simply unavoidable when you have a spinning wheel and water combined. Put a white piece of paper up on the other side of the wheel and grind some tools, Lyn. It's there.

Its still hard to escape the fact that water IS introduced to the steel of the tool (hence one of the advantages of using a wet grinder in the first place along with its effect on keeping the wheel wet/cool). The Tormek was better at keeping the water to a minimum than my Makita (which develops a sludge which is another mess) was but it still left the tool wet and water in the area of my other tools. Maybe everything in your shop is stainless but it's not in mine.

I completely agree. Unfortunately, it's often what KIND of experience those persons have as well that forms their opinions. You have yours and I have mine. I base mine on experience as well. The Tormek is your prefered system. It isn't mine nor are the wet grinders in general for woodturning. I love my Makita wet grinder for OTHER work as I don't have time to be turning it off and on or wiping down my woodturning tools as I work. While the Tormek is better (but not completely eliminating it) at the water/rust problem, it is still an issue that I will bring up because it has been proven to me by my own real tests. You can choose to ignore it but I won't.

- Andrew

I'm perfectly comfortable crediting you with it, as it was your comments that injectd those comments in that thread. It is silliness, particulary in the context of woodturning tools.

One, many turners work regulary with with green woods. The exposure to the water in these woods and the tannic and other acids often present result in far greater opportunity for rusting than the water associated with a wet wheel. Any residual water from sharpening on a wet wheel is inconsequential compared to the green wood contact with the tool.

Two, for those working with dry woods, any slight residual water will be either absorbed by the dry wood shavings, and/or physically wiped away by the cutting action, and/or baked away by the friction heat generated by the cutting action.

Three, if one is concerned about rusting, regardless of the water source (i.e. ambient humidity,green wood, or any residual water from wet sharpening) then it takes just seconds when done with a turning tool to wipe briefly with treated rag or buff quickly with a wax coated soft wheel. Again, if one turns in an environment where rusting is a problem, rusting will be a problem irrespective of any slight residual water left on a tool immediately after sharpening on a wet grinder.

Four, with respect to water and rust in the workspace, my experience has been that the Tormek water trough quite adequately contains the water used for wet sharpening. The wheel rides in the water bath, and the vertical wheel alows the water to efficiently flow back into that bath. I don't have a problem with water in my workspace, though perhaps my habits are neater than some. If one was concerned about this, an inexpensive cafeteria tray under the Tormek would be more than adequate to contain any drippings. Again, the turning environment, with wet shavings, and atomized extractives presents far more of an issue with moisture than residual moisture on a wet ground tool.

So yes, I find the rusting argument to be silly in the context of woodturning. Frankly, I find it silly in the context of knife sharpening too.

So what's the point other than to be snide.

But, see below.

I'm pleased to see that you acknowledge that the dry grinders make a mess, you previously only choose to mention the mess you consider associated with wet grinders, even though you were discussing them in comparison with your preferred dry techniques. The only conditions I have ever found a Tormek to cause discernable "spray" is with very small tools (like less less than 1/4 inch in diameter) that were extended out of the jig excessively or scrapers that were inadequately supported and vibrated slightly. With respect to water control, it is better when the gouge jig is used with the horizontal bar. Any slight spray that does exist is heavy (i.e., relatively large sized combinations of water and steel) and with little force, and thus falls quickly to ground (and usually just back on the wheel), rather than mixing with ambient air and becoming a respiratory risk and contributing to abrasive grit on surfaces far away from the sharpening station. Even dry grinders fitted with vacuum attachments have this problem, and of course, vacuum attachements have their own major drawbacks with possible sparks setting the mixture on fire or causing small explosions.

I find the

My Tormek sits in front of a white, hard surfaced "Kitchen Board" covered wall. It has been located there for years. I don't have such spray marks appearing on the wall (though I sure do behind the horizontal platters of my Lee Valley Power Sharpeners). Part of the reason this is not an issue is the slow speed of Tormek which simply doesn't accelerate particles with that much force (thus I think the word "turning" captures the movement more accurately than your choice of the word "spinning," which implies higher speed). The other reason is the design of the tools with its vertical direction of water flow, and bottom mounted tray.

I agree with you about the overspray of the horizontal machines such as the Makita. With the Tormek, the water has begun draining off the wheel before ever encountering the tool, and continued to run back down the wheel (or be absorbed into it). The Makita turns far faster than the Tormek, and the horizontal platter is poorly suited for water containment. I don't believe the Makita is an appropriate sharpener for woodturners, and haven't seen anyone market it for that purpose.

All of this has been addressed above. I can understand why you find fault with the Makita, particularly for woodturning, but the Tormek and Makita are very different means to wet grinding, differing in speed, orientation of the stone and water containment systems, not to mention wheel composition, jigging systems.

Yes, we both agree here. Though again, I'd reiterate the point that few have the comparative experience to make valid comparisons, but even with the comparative experience, many lack an objective, disciplined, and intellectually honest approach to evaluation and reportage of their experiences.

You have yours and I have

As above. In point of fact, when you made your initial comments with respect to the Tormek, you had no experience with one, and even now your experience is minimal.

The Tormek is your prefered

It is my prefered system for maintaining turning gouges, I listed in my initial reply to Maxprop (and have more extensively described in earlier posts and reviews) what my prefered systems are for other purposes. It would be incorrect to imply I have a singular bias or interest in the Tormek, rather I have the opportunity to use the sharpening system that works best FOR ME for the specific task at hand.

It isn't mine nor are the wet grinders in general for woodturning.

There is no reason to have to turn the Tormek off during breaks from sharpening. Indeed, the Tormek is a much safer device, because of its low speed, to be left turning. Frankly, good safety practice would not be to leave a high speed grinder (or most power tools) running when not directly attending to them.

and on or wiping down my woodturning tools as I work.

As addresed earlier, there is absolutely no need to be wiping down freshly sharpened turning tools as you turn. Even if one chose to do so, the time would be inconsequential for a recreational turner.

While

It is not a matter of ignoring anything (such as you did by not discussing drawbacks to the typical dry grinding system like wheel explosions,need for respiratory and vision protection, noise, abrasive grit precipitation about the shop, sparks, and not infrequent problems with out of balance wheels), rather it is a matter of placing specific issues in context (as I did above with respect to the rust--if you are really so concerned about water contacting your tool steel, you'd better give up turning wood for something like plastic) and objectively reporting BOTH the advantages and disadvantages of the competing systems based on both design analysis and experience [something I will be doing this year in a multi-article discussion of sharpening systems for woodturners in the periodical More Woodturning]. Your earlier comments of 2/23 in the grinding wheels thread were: "Forget wet grinding" "Wet grinding is just too messy (rust, water everywhere) and they never work right (water holes plug, balancing is always off) for the quick and often sharpening that woodturners deal with." These dismissive comments were excessive and overgeneralizations based on your experience with the Makita, and not with a Tormek (which of course has no water holes to plug, does not have balance problems because of its low speed, does not strew "water everywhere," and many of us find to consistently "work right.")

Devotion to sharpening systems seems to reflect a blind religious fervor in an awful lot of turners. I've never quite understood why. I'm not sure that objective information will ever be adequate to overcome the many closed minds on this topic, but I do know that objective information, reasonable design analysis, and reasonably controlled comparisons of different systems can be achieved. Andrew, you in particular are capable of both appreciating such information and providing it, much as I understand you are trying to do with respect to LDD. I look forward to reading of your efforts along these lines.

Lyn

Hello Max. A reply interspesed with some of yours. You may also want to read my reply to Andrew a little later in this thread.

Maxprop wrote:

Yes, but you are maligning the Tormek by repeating such information, and by so doing representing it as worthy of repetition. I was aware of Andrew's earlier remarks and at that time just didn't care to muster then energy to properly refute them. It was seeing, in your post, how failure to refute such misinformation allowed it to become cited with authority, that made me feel I had to respond.

There are several issues here. Let me take the expense issue first. I listed the sharpening systems I have to make clear that I have the hands on experience to comparatively comment on the various systems knowledgably and without bias for the one I owned or could afford. I have a lot of sharpening systems for a number of reasons, not the least are the many reviews and investigations I have conducted in the past and continue to conduct. Anyone who knows of my hand plane studies knows that I sharpen literally over a hundred times in a single day of investigation.

Now as to relative cost. The typical Tormek set up for woodturning is more expensive than many dry grinding systems, but perhaps not as much as many initially believe.

Let's compare a Tormek ($390) with the gouge and cutter jig ($65), the multitool jig ($50), the horizontal tool rest ($30) and the stone grader ($20)--I've rounded off slightly in both directions to make the math easier--this comes to $555. With this set, you can do a precision sharpen all gouges, all scrapers (including small hollowing tool scrapers) and all skews (both radiused and straight). You also, by default with the basic package, will have the means to sharpen handplane and chisel blades. You will be putting a 10 inch hollow grind on all of these tools.

Now lets consider some comparable abilities in a dry grinder. I'll use an 8 inch grinder as reference, as 10 inch dry grinders are basically out of reach for recreational turners.

Slow speed dry grinders run from approximately $125 to over $400 for a top notch Baldor. Let's split the difference and say $200 for a reasonably good 8 inch dry grinder since that is what both Craft Supplies and Packard are choosing to offer right now. Everybody, pretty much admits that the stock wheels are inadequate, so now we have the cost of two wheels, running from $40-65 (white aluminum) to $100 a piece (for blue ceramic), so again, allow me to round this off to a typical cost of $100 dollars for the desirable replacement wheels. Then their is the issue of balancing. Almost everyone who has used the Oneway balancer with their turning wheels have reported what a meaninful improvement they have made in performance (and Oneway reports longevity in bearing life as well), so now we add another $50. To come close to the precision sharpening of the Tormek jigs, let's use the commonly purchased Oneway Wolverine System which is $80 for the base system, plus $50 for the Vari-grind gouge attachment, plus $25 for the skew attachment. Finally, we need some sort of dresser for the stones, diamond versions running form roughly $20 to $40, so lets split the difference and go with a $30 dollar cost. Finally, if one wants the same range of capabilities as the specified Tormek jigs, one will need to add the Woodcut Scraper Holder and Stem Sharpeners, which adds another $25. So add this all together and one gets $560 (now honestly, I didn't total this up till right now and had expected it to still come in under the Tormek).

So, we have almost identical costs for a generally equal range of sharpening jigs (though with the dry grinder you won't have the precision handplane and chisel jig and the honing wheel that comes with the basic Tormek). So where is the savings? What the dry grinder arrangement does is make it a little easier to obtain these parts incrementally, but to get to the same point, there is no savings. It is possible to low ball the grinder (but at a likely cost in grinder life and performance), but even then one is only going to be talking about a matter of $75 dollars or so from the Tormek. So I submit that a dry grinding system does not assure a less expensive means towards a comprehensive grinding system. Indeed, one could actually spend much more if one based it on a top of the line Baldor. Finally, the Tormek offer a further range of additional jigs to allow the Tormek to precision grind a wider range of tools.

Then there is the issue of free hand vs precision jigs. Can some folks get a servicable edge from free-hand grinding, absolutely. Will a precision jig allow for an optimal geometry to be established on the tool and maintained with minimal future removal of steel, I find the evidence for this to be overwhelming. I have long maintained, and continued to find evidence to support the fact that tool life is considerably extended by use of a precision jigging system. You simply are better able to repeat the original geometry and thus remove less tool steel. Jerry Glaser, who has surely sharpened more gouges than 99.9 percent of us says so,as do a number of turners who have abilities to both free hand and jig hold their tools. David Ellsworth, whose name is well associated with his version of the swept back grind, has a great tape demonstrating how to free hand his grind, but also writes that when he now uses a jig (granted the one he designed) to maintain the grind "everytime." So yes, you can free hand grind tools into a usable form, but sadly it is often those novice turners who have the least skills to do so that are most apt to attempt that in a false belief it saves them money (maybe in the short run, but not when you consider tool life).

So I will grant you that the Tormek is expensive at initial purchase, but I don't think it is fair to consider it a luxury purchase when compared to comparable abilities in a dry grinder and factoring in tool life. Irrespective of the specific grinding system, I strongly suggest new turners invest in at least a minimal jigging system for their gouges--it will both save your tools, and decrease your frustrations.

It is true, neither are necessary, and if you reread my post, you will find I never argued that you or the original poster should purchase the Tormek. The content of my post was to refute the misinformation and place the choice of a sharpening system in a greater context. I ended with the statement that I'm not trying to convert anyone to any particular system. Instead, I am attempting to help individuals more fully consider the factual information relating to all their possibilities (including a vertical belt sander) when choosing to obtain or expand their sharpening system

Lyn