Probably the only real drawback to Tormek sharpening is the shortage of water out southwest. At any moment, sprinkling lawns and filling Tormek cups might be declared illegal in Ca. I suggest using a Tormek primarily, with a dry grinder and flat stone for both backup sharpening as well as grinding. Be sure to use all that Tormek spray on your lawns.
It's not easy, but I _am trying to conform by posting only serious and pertinent info that doesn't offend anyone. Being boring is a different problem yet to overcome. Arch
I had considered this, but just didn't want to belabor Andrew with any additional points. I've been conducting some extensive experimentation with carbonated beverages as a replacement for water when wet grinding. Specifically I've found Traditional CocaCola to work best for initial sharpening at 220. The Trad.Coke works well to strip any oils and extractives from the blades or gouges (it's not as efficient removing built up CA on the flutes, so I may switch to Jolt Cola, but only after I refine the research methodology)and reduces glazing of the waterstone. I then keep a second trough filled with Diet Sierra Mist ("the zero calorie Lemon-Lime Soda") for refined sharpening after grading the Tormek stone to 1000 with the Tormek Stone Grader. The Diet Sierra Mist, with the effervescent action from its carbonation cleanses the pores of the stone and the lemon-lime leaves the blade squeaky clean as well as vanishingly sharp. I had tried Mountain Dew, but the residual "dew" contributed to rusting, consistent with Andrew's concerns. Sierra Mist, however, just vanishes as quick as a mountain, what can I say, "mist."
I've been meaning to write this up as a formal investigative report (and am indeed now 37 pages into it), but I've been holding off until I get the final procedures worked out for the storage of the solutions. The problem has not been sealing the troughs, as I have developed some cryogenically treated titanium sealed lids for the troughs and store them in the refrigerator. No, the problem has been that my dog has taken to nosing open the refrigerator at night, breaking open the troughs and lapping them dry. Oh well, I guess that's not all bad as at least he is refining his lapping technique and getting a full compliment of iron and minerals. Still, it has been holding up my report on this breakthrough in wet sharpening.
Lyn
P.S. Hold off > Probably the only real drawback to Tormek sharpening is the shortage of
Lyn J. Mangiameli wrote: (clip) P.S. Hold off on your Pepsi and CocaCola stock purchases until I give you the inside information on when the report will be out. Not just turners, but Wall Street is going to go wild with the meaning of all this.(clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ I would like to hold off, but I am worried that by not buying these stocks based on the above information, I could wind up in a similar position to Martha Stewart.
Wouldn't not buying a stock, based on the advice of insiders like you, be equivalent to selling it, under the same circumstances?
With the risk of expanding our greatly expanding posts in this thread and alienating even those readers that continue to delve into them, I'll attempt to comment on the issues that you raise. I'd like to simply defend my position about the rust problem with the use of wet grinders in general which was the issue you had commented on before expanding into the ever-increasing range of Tormek-fervor that you evidently hold. THAT is the issue as you first mentioned. I'm not sure why you feel someone's (and not just mine) opinion and experience is cause for calling it silly (several times). I had not specifically mentioned the Tormek except as in relation to the original poster mentioning it as an option and as an example of a wet grinder. You've decided that the Tormek brand of wet grinder is at the heart of this debate. Fair enough.
I'll try to be brief .... You knew better....
As I was awaiting yours to mine. I'll not discount your opinions and experience as you have discounted mine. I feel you are honestly trying to report your experiences in an objective manner. I hope that you will come to realize that there might be other opinions based on experiences different (or perhaps the same) as yours. What you may discount as a non-issue may, perhaps, be an issue for others. You, as much as you might think and try to have, don't have all of the bases covered in your shop.
Poor argument but one that you frequently make. You're trying to say that since there are other, potential, sources for moisture, then the wet grinding system is blameless ("inconsequential"). For the record, I do agree that there are other potential sources for moisture in woodturning. Doing what one can to minimize that, especially when working with steels (althought some steels are better than others) and wood is desirable. If I can keep my grinding system from spewing (to whatever degree) moisture into the air or onto my tools, wood, equipment then I will.
On the tip of the tool? Sure. There's more to a tool than it's tip, Lyn. Again, this isn't all about the tool either. It's about the wood, other equipment and also the wet grinder itself. Oh, yes. Many wet grinders including older Tormek's that I know of, if you want a specific and relevant example of a wet grinder, (I can't verify this with the new Tormek I tried last night ... anyone?) had a problem with some of it's components (washers, bolts/screws, etc.) that weren't stainless and had rusting problems with the grinder itself. This is also what I was talking about (in addition to the tools and other equipment) when I said in my original post about rusting problems with wet grinders in general.
This reflects the way YOU work. Unfortunately, this is another problem that many people have and it is that they assume everyone works (or in this case turns/sharpens) the same as themselves. Often, I will not move my hands from their position on the tool from lathe to grinder and back again. I'm certainly not going to mess with having to wipe the tool down between steps. I suppose I could install a powered cloth buffing mop so that I could touch the tool against it before returning to the lathe ... but WHY? Why go to the extra expense and trouble to do that? It's not efficient to ME. Maybe to others or yourself.
Yet again, you're taking the "blame" off what you're arguing for and trying to put it onto something else (ie the "environment"). Unfortunately, water is not the only thing left on a tool after the use of some (I'm including this as I've not tested every conceivable wet grinder as I don't think Lyn has either and he apparently doesn't like generalizations getting in the way of a preferred tool) wet grinding systems.... the Tormek included at times. On the Makita, it's a terrible problem with the slurry of water/abrasive/steel particles attaching themselves to the tool. This has to be cleaned off to use it (unless you don't mind this stuff on your turnings). I noticed this afternoon on the Tormek (I got 2 extra hours usage on it and have sharpened a total of 18 turning tools 6 times; 20 plane irons 2 times; 1 nasty set of planer blades once; 8 bench chisels 2 times; a double axe that hadn't been sharpened for 25 years 1 time; 5 knifes 2 times and some mower blades several times) that it does the same thing. Slightly so but still noticable. It's most noticable when you don't change the water or clean it out and you don't really put much pressure on the tool to clear it off as it rotates. This type of thing would come under the "mess" in my post to the original thread poster. YOU may not have this problem, Lyn, but I do. I suspect I'm not the only one either.
And there it is. YOUR experience is that the water isn't a problem getting out of wheel or bath. You make a slight mention that it could be your working conditions ("habits") and one could infer that you might think that others' conditions are different. Very good. Others' conditions may very well be the same as yours or not. Mine obviously were as I did have slight problems with water splattering. This is just not acceptable to me and my work environment.
Unfortunately, a tray of any kind under the Tormek (or most wet grinders if I should be so bold as to be generalizing it as I have had experience with the Grizzly, Draper 31235, Sealey SM52 and of course the Makita) isn't going to be of much help in what I'm talking about. It SPRAYS the water and not just drips it off the machine. Frankly, I noticed no water puddling around the base of any wet grinder I've used unless it has a broken bath tub or tube.
Tell that to the knife sharpeners. I don't see how you can simply dismiss and discount others' experience. If you have time to clean your tools off (such as when sharpening a planer blade or even a bench chisel) then it's not much of an issue. If, with turners or knife makers, where you are sharpening often and don't have the time to spend cleaning your steel then it IS an issue.
No other point. Just being snide. You made it sound like you masterfully figured out that neither of us had specifically used the Tormek machine in a derogatory, superior (ie "snide") manner when, in fact, we forthrightly said so before that. That was my response.
Well, of course dry grinders make a mess. Every grinding system (I'll restrict myself to the topic at hand here) has it's strengths and weaknesses. I've tried to make that abundantly clear in as many posts as I possibly can. However, I can't or simply won't in deference to trying to keep messages clear and under 100k spell out every conceivable pro and con of everything people want to know about.
Please provide me with the post or portion thereof where I was comparing the wet grinders with the dry grinding setups. I can't find it but that doesn't mean it's not there. I'll gladly refer to it if you can find it. Maxprop asked me about the Delta wet grinding machines and said that he couldn't afford the Tormek. I told him what I thought and specifically said that I had no direct experience (then) with those specific machines. I related what I had learned from experience with the wet grinders I have used. Nowhere in there did I mention any preference for anything else. In a previous post in the same thread, I mentioned my experience and preference for other grinding techniques (plural). This was in no way in relation to the wet grinders or their own issues.
I didn't figure it was necessary to interject into a directed query and response for one subject in one post concerning wet grinders with commentary regarding the pros and cons of all other possible grinding equipment, techniques or systems such as the "dry techniques". IF Maxprop's question had anything to do with a comparison between the two approaches, then I should have and quite possibly would have mentioned the dry grinding (especially the grinding wheels) pitfalls as well. Should I do that for you now, Lyn? Should I ammend that post so it'll make it "fair" for you and others even though it had nothing to do with dry grinding and ALL to do with the wet grinding machines? It doesn't seem right to me as I'd like to be as direct with my postings as possible (albeit all too lengthy!) but I'm certainly willing to make amends on this one if it'll make people happy. I have all kinds of gripes with dry wheel grinding too (as you should find if you look in the archives here or in other common online forums for woodworking/woodturning) and will list those that I have personal experience with.
I tried this out this afternoon. I found that the "sharper" the tool is and the further back on the bevel you are sharpening (such as on a detail shallow fluted gouge) or with a long planer blade, the more spray I get. Smaller diameter tools spray more but then I sweep them back more so I don't know which is the cause. The horizontal bar does, indeed, help. However, I did still find enough spray with this machine in general to list it with the other vertical wet grinders as being "too much" for me.
Absolutely. I've never experienced the explosion problem nor have I heard reliable reports of it so I can't comment on that.
Call it what you want ... turning, spinning, rotating or whatever. It's moving in a circular motion and that introduces forces (to various degrees) to power particles out from it. Use whatever terminology that fits your argument.
I don't know what's different in the setups or use of this machine (Tormek) in particular and the other wet grinders in general, but I always get spray with these machines. Like I said before, I simply hung some white papers behind the unit to see if there was any spray. Some, like the Tormek, is small but significant enough for my comments all along. Others, like the Makita, are too much for my turning environment.
Yes. Absolutely. They are different machines. Personally, I think the Tormek and other really slow speed grinders like it are far too slow (another con that I didn't originally mention among others for brevity) for realistic use. I appreciate the speed of the Makita when sharpening knicked blades and don't mind it for general sharpening (other than turning tools of course) as I like to get done and get back to work. The speed causes other problems but I feel they are offset in this environment of MINE.
I'll not be mean.
True. Very true. With more experience with the machine give me better results in regard to the water/rust/mess issue? I think not but I don't want to make such a hasty conclusion.
That's just not practical in many real-world situations. Theoretically safer? Sure. But if it's safe to have running for a minute then it should be safe to have running for extended periods (given no heat problems or simply accidents happening where you fall into it). The same could be said for heaters, airconditioners, radios, dust collectors, air filters, lathes and a multitude of other things in the shop that are running. I leave my grinder/sharpening/honing station running the same time as my lathe. If I can avoid turning them off, I do while maintaining *reasonable* safety.
Maybe for the turning that YOU do but not for everyone. Again, you are assuming your readership and what they want to do. I know I certainly don't want any water on my miniature turnings. The water droplet alone is bigger than most of them. I know I don't want any water on a freshly shellac'd piece that I'm taking the final cut on another adjacent part of. I know I don't want any water on that mahogany chair spindle I just made either from the tip of the tool (discussed far above) or from the rest of the tool falling on it. While you may see recreational turners as unneeding of time saving devices, I don't always see that (jigs, grinders of any kind, quick finishes, etc.). I feel like they should be given the same advice, with explained caveats, as anyone. Just because YOU don't know of any reasons, doesn't mean there aren't any. Or do you discount these reasons too?
Explained above. The discussion that you are having such a problem with had nothing to do with a comparison with wet vs dry grinding hence no need to provide the details of a comparison in that post. The guy simply wanted to know what I thought about the Delta and Tormek wet grinding machines.
I AM concerned with my expensive and personal tools that I buy and/or make. You're damn right! I'm not independently wealthy and try to take care of my tools. When an issue arises, such as rusting, I take it seriously. I do turn plastic.... and antler, horn, stone and a multitude of other things. This is just another example of your dismissive attitude.
Lyn, this is an informal group with, often, informal questions and discussions. There is no mandate to conform to the scientific method in our discussions. Even IF (see the multiple times I've explained it above) the original discussion that this thread has give way to had been a comparison of competing strategies in grinding tools (which it wasn't, of course), I'm likely not to give an exhaustive analysis of everything concerning it. I'll try the best that I can and with what I believe is the questioners' (Maxprop in this case) intention to get an answer about but that doesn't mean I'm going to be as complete, objective, or distant all of the time as if I were doing one of my studies. I'm not going to respond to a question such as was asked of me by Maxprop in the same way or style as I'm going to respond to the 3M R&D department when they ask for technical details of a project or the way I'm going to write an article. It's simply not going to happen because these are different places. I've certainly had people on this and other woodworking/woodturning forums contact me directly before in order to discuss technical details and that's been fine. That's a different context entirely and I have responded in kind and in the style befitting that environment. This doesn't mean I won't try to be accurate, truthful and complete in any context.
Far too often, a response has nothing to do with what the questioner has asked about. It has to do with what the responder wants to relate to the group. Much like this thread you started in defense of the Tormek. You've brought up so many sub-subjects, offshoots and attacks that (what I think is) your main point of "The Tormek doesn't have the problems, especially the rust problem, that Andrew says it does" is getting lost.
Ahhh, yes. I was wondering if there was an article or one of your "reviews" behind this. I'll not go on as this isn't the place or thread to discuss it here.
As I explained further above, I have more experience with wet grinders than just the Makita. I specifically said to Maxprop that I had no experience with the Delta's he mentioned or the Tormek and went on with that caveat. I feel that I've not made an overgeneralization based on my experience with the other, very similar, wet grinders and now, with my experience with the Tormek over the last 8 hours (I went back after seeing your latest response and did more tests). Yes, I did combine problems between several different wet grinding machines but since that (and this) is still an informal and non-scientific forum, I feel comfortable in doing so. I'm sorry if you and your Tormek feel slighted. The overall advice that I gave to Maxprop was that the wet grinders are NOT necessary and are NOT worth the price for simply woodturning tools. I stand by that advice completely.
I don't agree. It's not enough to dismiss "feelings" and experienced gained over years simply because you've (a general term ... don't get in a bunch) done one of your "reviews" or written an article or performed a "reasonable design analysis". Objective information isn't the end-all beat-all thing to have in deciding what's personally favorable to someone. A certain level of understanding and information about a particular product or procedure or "system" is desirable and helpful but won't ... shouldn't ... be the deciding factor at all times.
I can certainly appreciate the effort, time, and technicals of performing a design analysis, comparisons and studies of all sorts, I can also see their shortcomings. Magazine reviews are nice. Studies are great. But most of them tend to underscore, to varying degrees, the SUBJECTIVE of the person performing them rather than allowing anyone to base a definitive conclusion on them. I do appreciate the efforts you put toward your "reviews" and the manner in which you expose them if nothing else.
Thank you but I feel it's going to be far more informative in reading the efforts of those performing the study themselves. Something I learned from a mentor "It's not the study and it's results that are important ... it's the repeatability of it."
You can have the last word. I can't think of any more ways to defend my own experiences and the advice I was asked for and gave.
Actually I can, but prefer not to do so, if unnecessary. And I agree with your contention that a Tormek is not a necessary, if perhaps desirable, part of one's overall tool/knife/blade sharpening system.
I, like most new turners, am experiencing the sticker shock associated with the landslide effect. The lathe is the tip of the iceberg in terms of cost. Sorby tools, a Vicmarc chuck, a hollowing system, and I'm feeling inclined to pull in the reins a bit on expenditures. A usable, effective sharpening system that doesn't cost $390 plus jigs and accessories has real appeal.
First off, Lyn, I've read all the posts in this thread to date, and have learned more about sharpening than I thought possible in this NG. It's a real plus having experienced contributors, such as you and Andrew, debate a topic in detail. While it was not my intent to create a controversy, I'm glad I did.
Onward: As I explained to Andrew I am suffering a bit of sticker shock with respect to purchases beyond the initial investment in the lathe. Faced now with upgrading my sharpening system I'm attempting to hold the line on costs somewhat. A Tormek is appealing--I spent half an hour with a salesman in Indianapolis recently, while he demonstrated and extolled the virtues of the system. And I've no doubt that with jigs and a slow, larger diameter wheel I could do a far better job of putting a proper edge and maintaining geometry on my tools. But cost is an object, especially while entrenched in the novice stage of turning, not yet knowing if I'm going to be any damn good at this or not.
A Delta GR450 ($125), with a set of appropriate pastel (sorry, couldn't resist that) wheels at about $30 per, may be minimalist, but workable. I'm in the process of exploring the various jigs, and may break down a buy one or two as well. However the dry grinding system you describe above is as financially undesirable at this stage of my avocation as the Tormek system.
I am making progress in my turning, though. Only about 90% of my work is firewood at this stage. Only three weeks ago it was a solid 100%. And if my learning curve continues at this angle, I may one day start entertaining thoughts of Stubbys or Oneways. But right now the future is uncertain enough to induce a bit of rein-tightening in terms of outlay. Andrew's suggestions have a pretty good fit with my situation currently.
That said, both your and Andrew's advice is appreciated and digested. Thank you both.
Max rightfully expressed his gratitude by writing; ".....both your and Andrew's advice is appreciated and digested. Thank you both."
*********************************************** Well now Max, What are George, William, Leo, Ken, Terry and I ? Chopped liver? Maybe we didn't win an Oscar, but we too, made significant contributions to this production. We are a little miffed, but we are a forgiving bunch and just glad to know you suffered no indigestion. As for Dominic, (remember him?) we hope he is busy sharpening his set of tools and having fun with his HF 34706. :) & 'G'
try searching google, there are lotsof diy plans out there, for many tools, and i remeber seeing a hollowing system too(if you mean the secondary rest that the hollowing tool goes in to make hollowing easier)as well as a sharpening system or 10 in article fmA0c.27621$ snipped-for-privacy@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net, Maxprop at snipped-for-privacy@propshaft.end wrote on 2/29/04 10:02 PM:
That made me think of this old stone mason I saw working about 30 years ago on some sort of garden sculpture/wall thing that would just pick up one of the stones and sharpen his chisels on it. Eventually, he'd use that stone in whatever he was making and use another one later on. On he went using up his sharpening equipment in what he was building at the time.
Come to think of it, Asphalt wouldn't be too good to use when it was really hot outside, I guess.
Ken Moon wrote: (clip) sharpening on a concrete sidewalk (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ A typical concrete sidewalk can easilly cost more that a Tormek with all its accessories. So, I do my sharpening on my neighbor's front walk, after dark. If he catches me, then we'll talk.
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