Plagiarism - who was first? (long)

American Woodturner has an article on plagiarism i the latest edition. There are obviously problems attached to this area of legal usage.

The example used in the article is a piece by Rude Osolnik as opposed to a "knockoff" by someone else.

First: How on earth can Rude Osolnik prove to anybody that _his_ piece is the first? Where did he get the idea? Who else did almost the same at different points in time without being registered by the author of the article? As a point of interest, I would think that quite a few such objects have been made since 1960, the form being a typical 60ies thingy. Neither is it especially complicated, so, in my judgement a lot of people could have made the thing independently without knowing about any of the others. Are we then speaking plagiarism?

In my opinion the fact that a piece has been sold by somebody does not create copyright unless you can document being "the first".

In my opinion it is not enough to be the first in your neighborhood to make a certain form, to establish copyright, or the right to deem others "knockers off". The techniques and the materials are pretty universal, and the one hollow form does not differ too much from the other, unless, and here is one point that I feel is important: Unless the technique is so complex and the choice of materials and the finishing touches are so distinct and rare that little doubt can be had as to the originality of the work.

Collectors value was mentioned, and the copies was said to diminsh the value of the original. This I can not understand: Like the collectors of sculpture and painting, there are two significant ways to establish the value and origin of a piece:

The signature: If a piece is signed, and someone else copies the work _and_ the signature, then I imagine that existing laws in all countries have been breeched, and a lawsuit is a near possibility.

The technique: If the artists technique is sufficiently complex and special that an expert or two can examine the work, and state that the probability of the piece being an original from this or that artist, then the probability may be worth the money. Sometimes the copy brings as much money as the original, even though "everybody" knows the piece to be a copy, it is that interesting, or well made.

I think this "problem" of plagiarism is a bit out of proportion. Expensive, well known pieces that are well documented by the artist or the gallery is one thing: There the term plagiarism may have some meaning.

Undocumented "firsts" or very local "firsts" of simple form and common materials should be treated as "public domain" because of the problem of establishing a real "first". If the artist signs his pieces and documents his production in a satisfactory way, he is, of course, in a better position to grumble about "knockoffs", but it is my opinion that the form cited in American Woodturner as being an "Osolnik" is far too simple both in the form and in the choice of material to represent a real "first".

Bjarte

Reply to
Bjarte Runderheim
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Copyright can be established by creating the work, "publishing" the work, or registering the work with a copyright office is simply an affirmation. As you point out later this may not be as easy as it looks or seems. :-)

Not relevant to establishing a copyright. Possibly relevant to a challenge -- I would guess.

Quite true. Similar works often raise these issues. An "author" would need to come forward. But for copyright -- probably irrelevant.

Good questions. Are you -- like Arch -- trying to make my head hurt? It's working.

Maybe - maybe not. You certainly raise all the issues.

If an item went to trial a judge would look at the case "in all the circumstances". And you do raise quite a few... :-)

Selling has nothing to do with it. Creating, "Publishing" and possibly registering create the "copyright". Creation of a work grants you the copy rights and the moral rights. It does not grant you a patent -- which is quite another matter. I mention a patent because some of your concerns border on "claiming a form as ones own" -- which is closer to the Intellectual Property (IP) rights granted by a patent.

Not true. Simply creating a work creates a copyright. Copyrighting a style or form -- now that might be a challenge. Copyright is quite specific. You raise two quite different issues here. 1. copying; 2. In the style of...

I have trouble with this as well. As long as copies are identified and there purpose identified, the should not diminish the value. Fraud is another issue altogether.

Agreed. This is my understanding of IP and copyright. Except....

Taiwan for example insists that IP (at least patents, have to investigate copyright -- if I get motivated...) be registered there first -- if at all. Otherwise it does not recognize the Intellectual Property (IP) rights. There are probably other countries with similar "gotchas"...

That's how (fraudulent) art copiers often work. :-)

Unless you take a patent. Someone in this forum mentioned he was working on "round". Not sure how he made out. LOL

Will look for the article before I dare comment on that. Then it would be only an opinion. Only a formal court hearing could give a final verdict in the case of a dispute -- and that is most unfortunate.

This issue was discussed previously. Is it "plagiarism" to "work in the style of".

Don't think we ever resolved it.

Reply to
WillR

I used to think if somebody copyrighted something or patented it, that they created it or invented it. Then I grew up.

Bjarte Runderheim wrote:

Reply to
Jules

Whenever this topic comes around, it always becomes many lawyers or legal experts citing laws and statutes and about copyrights and patents. Once we get there, we have missed the whole point.

The issue, as Bjarte wonders, is: "Where does one turner's original work end and another's begin? When am I infringing on someone else's turf?" Forget the legal definitions. What are the ethical boundaries and how do we define them?

This same topic came up on the WOW group and I wondered out loud there too. Can nobody ever use a puzzle motif because Art Liestman "did it first"? How different is different enough? Can nobody ever turn a southwest pottery shape with segmented turning because Mark Kauder does such great work? Or is Mark plagiarizing Malcolm Tibbetts? Or is Malcom plagiarizing Ray Allen? Or they all are stealing from the native Americans from the southwest - no wait - they used clay so its OK, at least for Ray.

Exhortations to NOT copy are OK, but until we have practical tools to determine the boundaries, exhortations are inadequate.

I do have a couple of suggestions that I think all of us need to ponder. First, plagiarism is about lost earnings potential and lost prestige. If you copy a form as an exercise for your own satisfaction and give it away, I don't think that is an ethical violation. If you start to sell items that closely resemble someone else's designs, you are leveraging their creativeity for your own profit. I think that is wrong. But again, how close is too close?

Second, if you make and sell forms in a vacuum that end up looking close to another's your ignorance of their prior design is not an adequate defense in my book. You are obligated to know your profession and your profession's history a little. Read books on gallery collections. Visit the WOW group and other gallary-type websites. Study other media for what is happening there (glass, pottery, fabric, whatever). I think by doing this step, you begin to learn the ethical boundaries for yourself.

Joe Fleming - San Diego

Reply to
Joe Fleming

I agree Joe. I also think that design or form isn't something that magically lands on our shoulders. All we are is a sum of all our experiences and perceptions. (and musings :) (and genetics)) Therefore everything we create owes, in part, its origin to all we have seen. I was watching a movie once and the bloke quoted the bible and said "There is nothing neww under the sun" or something similar. However, about the bloke in the vacuum; If he is able to produce quality, saleable work resembling the famous work of another (who would need to be in another world) Then it would follow that others not in the hobby would be even less likely to have seen the original therefore his earning potential would not be reduced. Mick

Reply to
Michael Lehmann

Seems the surest way to find yourself doing something you saw elsewhere.

You're not a bookseller, are you?

Reply to
George

Did not most -- perhaps all -- of these laws come into existence because =

of prior problems? So how could knowing the law and the treaties "miss=20 the point"? Are you not debating a legal issue -- since the ethics have=20 been enshrined in law and treaty?

I would have though that one could look to copyright law and the=20 international treaties for guidance. Otherwise... will we not rehash the =

same ground over and over again?

Those who do not study history are domed to repeat it...

I guess the original artists will have to sue. Otherwise all that the=20 rest of us can do is feel really bad -- if indeed there has been an=20 "ethical violation". Certainly I cannot feel wounded as I am not even=20 aware of the art of which you speak.

As above -- are these not the copyright laws which enshrine our creators =

rights in Copyright Law and International treaty. These treaties give us =

Copyright and Moral rights for our original works.

Does that not only leave the problem of determining what is an original=20 work, and determining the wounded party?

Do the treaties not define "ethical behaviour"?

It is definitely a legal violation, and since the laws are based on=20 ethics... That would make you wrong -- IMO.

Same as above point -- only now you may have trespassed into the=20 criminal provisions of Copyright and the Artist need no longer bear the=20 burden of prosecuting the offender. (At least as I read the law -- a=20 lawyer may differ in this opinion.) In Canada, the UK and many of the=20 old commonwealth countries "The Crown" would have to pursue the case --=20 and normally it would be brought to their attention. I suspect that in=20 the USA it can go either way...

Ignorance of the law is no excuse -- at least that was the theory.=20 However... Ignorance is an excuse -- at least in the United States of=20 America. If the "offended party" can prove that you were aware of the=20 prior art, they can ask for treble damages -- in civil court anyway.

This last issue has been much discussed in terms of Software and=20 Engineering Intellectual property.

The custom now is to _not_ do IP research -- to avoid the treble damages =

issue. So -- so much for good research... :-(

Perhaps if people really care about this they should search for the=20 International Copyright Treaties and read them. they will find that many =

of these issues are enshrined in law -- to which at least the EU,=20 Canada, USA and Mexico are signatories. There are lots of other=20 signatories, but those ones come to mind.

Some countries do require that you register your IP rights there first=20

-- otherwise they do not recognize them -- e.g. Taiwan.

Hope this helps.

--=20 Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art

formatting link
power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Reply to
WillR

My question is this: Did the second person to commit plagiarism steal the idea from the first?

Reply to
Leo Lichtman

Obviously, they did.

Reply to
WillR

Reply to
Michael Lehmann

Are you not debating a legal issue -- since the ethics have been enshrined in law and treaty?

IMHO ,as laws are made by governments [and governments are, in the main, greedy corrupt and unethical] the enshrining of any ethics by an unethical body is unconscionable. (Legal ethics may not be an oxymoron when applied to the legal profession but when applied to government :) That does lead me to an ethical dilemma. Say someone copies a famous turners style and then sells the product (with his name on it) at a charity fundraiser. ?? mick

Reply to
Michael Lehmann

Pass the money to charity and jail the plagiarizer. Assuming the plagiarsee agrees that is. Of course if they won't agree then they are not ethical. So we should give the money to charity anyway and jail everyone else for lack of ethics.... Including the original turner -- if you get my drift.)

Of course by your reasoning the governments are corrupt and unethical so jailing the other people would be a breach of ethical behaviour as well

-- which would land us in jail -- leaving no one to do anything... (Since the jails are run by governments...)

And therein lies the problem -- if you see what I mean.

Just making this up on the fly of course so it may take a little work to gain acceptance...

Perhaps you can think on it a bit and clean up the logic a tad...

Reply to
WillR

All,

I guess I didn't make my point clear and I apologize.

We can argue what law says what all day long. These threads always seem to go there as this one is now doing.

My point is, prior to legal action and a verdict determined by a judge or jury, how do I know where the line between plagiarism and originality is located? none of us should have to be relying on a civil action to draw the line. That is why I am dismissive of legal discussion. Instead, I am looking for practical tools/guides/practices/etc. that help us make these design-close-to-the-line decisions more easily.

If I want to make a carved and colored lef motif on a bowl, I do not want to rely on Andi Wolfe suing me so that I know where the line is located. I want a practical reference for all of us to use.

Joe Fleming - San Diego

Reply to
Joe Fleming

Ethics is indeed a very tricky area. I prefer woodturning myself but.. I'm off work sick (botched op :( and will need to speak with my muse and clarify my position. mick

Reply to
Michael Lehmann

I personally think that you can only be guilty of plagiarism if you make a definite atempt to copy work of another. re my earlier post about creation.

Reply to
Michael Lehmann

Bear with me -- one last quick kick at the cat...

It was clear actually. You are asking for something very difficult to provide -- except in a formal sense. It truly is difficult to decide whether something is original or not.

Second... it is difficult to prove a negative. I did not copy that piece. I did not steal that bread. etc.

So the law tries to deal with positives. On behalf of the complainant we will try to prove that you copied that piece. It is not up to you to prove innocence -- rather up to the complainant to prove guilt...

Because if you look at the copyright law it mostly answers your questions... ? :-)

You can only make a "best judgment call". As I pointed out earlier. .... _DON'T DO RESEARCH BY LOOKING AT OTHER PEOPLES WORK._ You would be looking for trouble... (Unless they have been dead some time.)

(See note at end)

LOL

Sorry - but that is an important point. It comes from knowing the law.

As another poster points out. Look at a leaf for your self. Do not look at another artists rendition of a leaf on a bowl. By looking at other work, then you can easily "cross the line".

You don't. You use the copyright law as guidelines.

Be as dismissive as you like. As I pointed out several times... The copyright act is based on real world experience in "drawing the line between plagiarism and creative work and derivative works". ..And in these modern times a few flights of impractical fantasy. But that's another story.

As someone else pointed -- best not look too closely at another turners work. Then there could be a basis for a complaint -- if they can prove that you viewed the object in question.

Now that I have taken up turning I take no more than cursory looks at other peoples works. I try not to analyze them -- in case I inadvertently duplicate them, or substantial portions thereof... Sad in a way because I would love to study some of the truly inspirational work I have viewed in the last few months.

"Current" rock music (as in last 30 years) is based heavily on classical scores. Good thing Mozart is dead. LOL

It is very difficult for composers to not copy work -- because they constantly listen to other composers work... Hard to avoid these days.

Note:

When you create a work that you believe to be "spectacular" it would be in your best interests to document where the ideas came from how you designed it, and how you built it. You may come up with something similar to someone else -- but built in an entirely different way. That alone might help you some day.

Keep track of the ideas, the techniques, the tools, the finishes, the preparation techniques, wood species -- anything you can think of that made the object "yours".

If you visit a show it might be best to diarize a few notes. Why? Well suppose that someone accuses you of "copying" their work. Yet your diary shows that you viewed say 300 pieces. How did you memorize the piece and the techniques in the seconds you had to view that particular piece? How did you learn the techniques? (Proving instantaneous osmosis might be difficult for the wounded party...) If you take pictures - you may have another issue.

Does that help?

Best wishes...

Reply to
WillR

. It is not up to you to

Would be very hard to do. The person would need to confess and don't most western countries have a statute or something that says a person does not have to incriminate themselves? mick

Reply to
Michael Lehmann

Presumption of innocence is a point of _criminal_ law, not tort.

Reply to
George

Haven't had anything to do with civil law. Though at the moment I'm thinking about sueing the butcher who botched my vasectomy last week.

Reply to
Michael Lehmann

Although it is now off topic....

If there is no presumption of innocence for a tort offense... Then the logical conclusion might be that in an American Court one need only make an accusation. and the guilty party will be subsequently fined and possibly imprisoned for a Tort offense. I am curious. Is this true?

Back on topic....

The Copyright Acts now have criminal offense provisions for treaty signatories as it is now equated to theft in some cases... It is not automatically a Tort or a criminal offense - it depends on the venue and who is "making the charges". This occurs in "Name Brand Theft" etc. where your customs people and your FBI gets involved in the large scale manufacture of Copyrighted Items -- everything from MS Windows to Jeans...

...So my comment on the necessity of proving guilt was in my mind on target. Particularly if you wish to pursue someone for copying your work...

Better to simply ignore other peoples work -- except in a general sense and come up with your own designs and ideas...

Reply to
WillR

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