Plagiarism - who was first? (long)

"WillR" skrev i melding news:c1D2e.12215$ snipped-for-privacy@news20.bellglobal.com...

Laws on copyright differ in different countries, and the american version is probably the most legalized there is.

In Norway copyright is established simply by creating a piece of work, no matter what kind, as long as it is.

Now, that may seem a bit simplistic to the american mind, but in fact it works quite well. If you feel used by someone, by way of plagiarism or otherwise, you first go to established organisations which deal with such matters, if there is no help, you sue.

Nobody will sue anybody over a 25cm platter of traditional form, no matter how dear it is to your heart, and how many you already have sold: It is too much like something that anybody could come up with, and no court i Norway would consequently grant you "first right".

To get compensation from "knockers off" you need to prove your originality beyond reasonable doubt.

Like I said, creating creates copyright. But: My point is that claiming copyright to any form or article is a bit selfdefeating, or should be. I feel that many "artists" claim copyright and damages on a basis that is too flimsy with respect to the historical overwiew, and use the laws on copyright to run a lot of cases on plagiarism where no such thing is either intended or real.

Any woodturner must have the right to go through the classical forms and techniqes without being afraid of stepping on anybodys toes. All forms must be legal prey for the trainnee or experience-seeking woodturner, without being accused of anything: Namely: As long as he signs his things with his own signature, and in cases where the original idea is clearly derived from someone else, giving credit for the idea to whom the credit is due.

Nobody should be brought to court for wanting to practice and learn.

Bjarte

Reply to
Bjarte Runderheim
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"Michael Lehmann" skrev i melding news:d2i4ju$6bd$ snipped-for-privacy@news-01.bur.connect.com.au...

I often make definite attempts to copy the work of another. Sometimes I am asked to make a copy of some article that someone has inherited from their grandfather and so on, sometimes it is a question of me trying to find out "canIdoittoo"? In both cases I sign my own signature and year of origin. In the latter case I also try to find room for "Idea by ...."

What I will _not_ do is skip the "Idea by ...." and put the thing into production, at least not without previous written consent from the first man, and photos.

Bjarte

Reply to
Bjarte Runderheim

Well.... it is or it isn't. LOL

Agreed - could happen. We have seen more cases here of artists exercising their "moral rights" probably.

Agreed....

Agreed -- but even as you stated the offense would be in the mind of the beholder.

Agreed. But then maybe they should never show their copied work to "outsiders". ...Or as you said actually identify the piece with the original authors name and your name and identify the purpose of the piece.

Bjarte:

It seems that you and I agree.

I am in Canada, we are signatories to the same treaties as your country, and our laws are similar for that reason.

And the methods of redress are the same -- again because our countries are signatories to the same treaties.

The USA are signatories to the same treaties.

Reply to
WillR

"WillR" skrev i melding news:Kbc3e.19716$ snipped-for-privacy@news20.bellglobal.com...

If we do, I am pleased.

The practice of law in the USofA, especially the civilian law (if that is what it is called: _not_ criminal law) and the strong tendency to reward the ambulance chasers with payment of damages outside this world, and stopping anybody from making anything for fear of being sued in case somebody finds some way to harm themselves with your product, - - - well, nuf said.

US law is not viewed as a positive example in my part of the universe, even though a lot of people still are thankful to the americans for the help we got during and after WW2. (And from Canada too, for that matter:-)

Bjarte

Reply to
Bjarte Runderheim

We do -- and I am pleased as well.

Well yeahh... and Canada is going that way a bit... but we use the common law as a base -- where Americans do not. That prevents many of the same issues from arising.

Aside: In common law we look at the body of previous decisions of the lower courts as forming a precedent. In the American systems they seem to concern themselves with appellate courts as forming the "real body" of the law. But the American can comment if they wish to clarify the point.

Be careful here -- because...

The USA is a signatory to the Berne Convention and since they are a member of the WTO they would be by default a signatory to the Berne Convention anyway. And that means they must -- by law -- respect the "moral rights" of an artist. ...And an understanding of the "moral rights" of an artist should answer many of the questions on this forum. And those rights are explained in the treaty...

Note that I made a couple of posts showing the links to the Berne Convention (Treaty) and a few other research links.

And... You are welcome. Some of my relatives died in that war -- and few Canadians -- if any -- begrudge our losses. I suspect the Americans (and others) feel the same way about the Great Patriotic War -- but they can speak for themselves.

Reply to
WillR

Seems an article in 'American Woodturner' has revived an interest in and sparked much discussion about plagiarism and similar transgressions. Unlike religion and politics, questions of ethics, morality and jurisprudence are acceptable on this electronic soapbox and they interest many of us.

I started out to suggest the limited extent of the problem by a facetious inquiry: are more of our customers in hospital due to unsafe food finishes and wood allergies or are more turners in jail due to plagiarism, patent infringement and similar capital crimes? I'm glad I thought better of it (I usually don't) because plagiary should be taken seriously, but in proper perspective.

Plagiarism might not be a _recognizable_ problem for most of us today, but it may become one as the numbers of competent turners increase and the exchange of ideas and techniques that make plagiary easy becomes widespread. Just musing while the lacquer dries.

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

formatting link

Reply to
Arch

Then we come back to my earlier post about the nature of creativity. I think that everything I turn is completely original. But this shape I may have seen and liked on that and another sort of shape I may have seen at work. etc etc I dont think there can be any 'new' form. Mick

Reply to
Michael Lehmann

Nope, but the standards of proof, are much less, and the burden of proof is shared a good deal more. In some cases, like small claims, not showing up is presumption of fault.

Reply to
George

Singing sorprano?

...Kevin

Reply to
Kevin Miller

Tony?

Reply to
Lobby Dosser

"George" skrev i melding news:424dcd1e snipped-for-privacy@newspeer2.tds.net...

A good example of expediency surpassing justice.

Bjarte

Reply to
Bjarte Runderheim

news:424dcd1e snipped-for-privacy@newspeer2.tds.net...

Only if you know nothing about the lengthy process of filing, services, notifications and scheduling.

Reply to
George

I'm sure SWMBO says I sound more like Sid Vicious. To anyone considering the procedure, find the most expensive surgeon you can and get them to do it.

Reply to
Michael Lehmann

======================= Michael, After a few days it won't be too bad ...... IF you learn the new way to sit down!! Mine was done 30 yeares ago; had a good doc; procedure at 9:00AM, went back to work after lunch. Good luck with your recovery!

Ken Moon Webberville, TX

Reply to
Ken Moon

For a few days your best friend might be an icebag and the woman who fetches a fresh one for you, but after that, it's fine. Sure 'takes the worry out of being close.' ;-)

Bill

Reply to
Bill

snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (Arch) wrote in news:27564-424D9289-444@storefull-

3174.bay.webtv.net:

Just musing while the lacquer dries.

You _do_ have a window open, don't you? ;-)

I, for one, enjoy having my intellect tweaked now and then. Your musings always stir some interesting conversation.

Patriarch

Reply to
Patriarch

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