Random musings about genetically perceived good work. (long)

"Arch" wrote: (clip)gilding a corn stalk. (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I can see that a gilded corn stalk might be quite attractive.

The questions you are raising about esthetics keep coming up, not only among wood turners, but also among painters, photographers, architects, designers, to name a few. The subject is complex, and I don't think will ever be completely resolved, which is why it keeps coming up. As a photographer, I am quite familiar with the rules of composition. These rules represent centuries of experience, but they do not *determine* what is beautiful. They are no more than helpful guides. The danger is that once you learn the "rules," you may start being controlled by them, and your independent esthetic sense could fade away.

When everyone starts following the same rules, we are on the road to dullness. Inevitably, though, someone with a backbone comes along and starts does something different, creating a new excitement, possibly a new trend, some new rules, and eventually a new dullness.

In message , Leo Lichtman writes

Do you find that with your photography, even though you know the rules, you can take 1000's of photographs, which when you look at them you say to yourself ok, ok ,ok and then you find one where you say to yourself 'I Like' ? I find I do that with Pictures, art, buildings, craft objects, basically anything where there is an element of art. Now I play with turning, I find I the same. An object can be complex, which I will say 'neat', or 'clever', but it doesn't mean the same as ' I like'. It is as though when 'I like' something deep inside me has been touched, maybe its emotion, maybe its the lines of the object flow perfectly together, maybe its a million and one things all combining together in one instance

I think the term that comes to mind is rules are meant to be broken, try it, how else do we really learn something new ?

Same here, I may not know much about art, but I know what I like. :)

Turns out that most(?) people from diverse cultures and walks of life know what they like and it is all down to Nature. There are natural forms such as the golden section and the Fibonacci series that appeal to all.

Here are some books I can recommend:

Geometry of Design by Kimberly Elam - Overlays are especially useful.

Fragments of Infinity by Ivars Peterson - Some lovely step by step art & more.

Nature's Numbers by Ian Stewart - Why do tigers have stripes and leopards have spots?

Of course I was aware of my redundancy. I had tried to put a mildly entertaining and slightly different spin from a narrow but hopefully a little different perspective on the tired old question. My 'can opener' wasn't too creative, but I thank you all for good responses to it.

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

"John" WROTE: Do you find that with your photography, even though you know the rules,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I often have difficulty judging my own work. Yes, it is only occasionally that something immediately rises above the rest. Frequently I file pictures away that are not bad enough to throw away, and later I start to like them more. It's a little harder to file bowls away, since shelf space does not obey Moore's law. :-)

As with women, the old saying comes to mind. "Beauty is only skin deep, but Ugly goes clear to the bone"

Of course, trying to eliminate ugly will only stifle creativity, and as our tastes change (individually or as a society) the relative definitions of beauty and ugliness tend to change as well.

Generally speaking, in today's thought, ugly in a bowl (or other vessel) is something that "looks heavy or clunky" and has lines that are not continuous or smooth curves. Just as we tend to see animals with big eyes (squirrels, kittens, puppies) as "cute" and those with tiny eyes (rats, etc) as ugly or distasteful, so do we have similar cultural tastes when it comes to art. If we look back into history, we find many of the "classic forms" are those with smooth, flowing lines that tend to look "light" relative to the surface they sit or stand on. Heaviness has little to do with the physical weight or wall thickness of a peice, (though the turn it paper thin crowd will sure to differ with me) but does have a lot to do with whether the object seems to rise above the planar surface it sits on. Of course, with wood as with many art objects, many feel that art should be pleasing to touch and hold, so there is definitely a benefit to create something that is relatively light for it's size, as it is easier to hold and typically judged as more pleasing to handle. NO need to go overboard, but to a reasonable level, lighter is good if not overdone.

Of course, any approach can be taken to make a statement, and much art is about a statement made by the artist. Whether it's to evoke thought or emotion, or to prove they can do something nobody else can do really doesn't matter, so long as nobody gets hurt....

--but I digress --- back to "good work"

The popularized use of the "golden mean" [which is typically no more than a proportion using 1 to 1.6 as the base ratio] to define shapes, relative to diameter vs height, and so forth, is probably more clinical than I really want to get with this reply, which is likely too long already... However, what is considered Good and what is considered Bad is often shadowed by the capabilities (and learned opinion) of the one doing the judging.

A smooth, simple line can go a long ways towards causing a wider variety of people to see an object as good. Following established and accepted standard forms (like the ancient and/or classic forms) can't hurt, though then we get into whether it is a learned thing, or a reasoned or feeling one. (I suppose this is why Arch used the words "genetically perceived" to begin with.) The same applies to color. We tend to like objects that use harmonious colors, and dislike those with discordant ones, though the same argument that learned responses of what is good or bad tends to overpower any innate sense that would come through if there was a lack of societal pressure.

Rick, many thanks for taking time to respond with your very readable and thought provoking comments. Responses like yours and all the good contributors to this ng show the value of uncensored dialog about any facet of woodturning; a happy mix of its hows, whys and what's.

In spite of spam, doggerel, sarcasm, spats, flames and whatever else "goes bump in the night", turners at any level or attitude can learn and share much here.

Anyone interested in woodturning should feel free to post to this ng since a silly question or a profound answer is only in the eye of rcw's disparate beholders. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

(clipped)

Hello Arch and others,

When I was doing craft shows a number of years ago, I came to the conclusion that every piece we make has an owner, we just have to find that person. At my first craft show in 1993, I had some nice pieces for sale but my wife had insisted that I take my first bowl also. I considered it to be awful and no one would consider purchasing it. It was the only piece that sold at that event. The lady walked up and grabbed that bowl and said I'll take it, without even asking the price.

Another time I was at the Anacortes Arts and Crafts show in about 1995 with a rented booth and tent. I had a vase that I thought ugly, so it was displayed in the very back of the exhibit. A lady walked in and pushed her way right through the crowd looking at my work and said, "That's mine." without looking at the price. That was the time when I realized that every piece we make has an owner, we just have to find them.

What is beauty to one person may be ugly to another, regardless of the rules that we apply. That doesn't mean that we should not try to do our very best work on every piece that we produce even if it is only for ourselves.

Fred Holder

The recent post about every turning having a customer brought several things to mind. The first two have nothing directly to do with turning or do they?

First, Catholic monks who live in monastaries where they cycle through reading the Psalms can have a passage in a Psalm have great meaning to them one time when they read it and then mean little the next time they read it.

Second, the author of some book on Zen said he had read one Zen book multiple times using a different color pencil to mark what was important and saw how what was going on in his mind varied over time.

Third, when I started playing with making wooden bowls I created a series of bowls I named 'the firepit collection'. They went into a firepit in our yard awaiting heat and oxygen. Once when we had guests over they wanted to start a fire in the firepit so I said OK. A little while later I looked outside and saw one person with a rake pulling things from the fire and another kneeling down reaching into the fire and pulling something out. They thought my trash had some value to them and were rescuing it.

My point is people see things in their environment that somehow connects with what is going on with the stirrings in their minds at a point in time. When someone sees a turning that somehow clicks with what is happening inside their heads they may want it.

There is also the idea of 'meaningful coincidences' where people have events happen that seem like coincidences but have some sort of meaning to them. Finding what to them is a work of art could be one of those chance happenings.

Now, I suppose is hard telling how to use any of this to get people to part with their money.

I keep a pile out in the back of my barn/workshop where I through scraps and such. Every so often my uncle or one of my cousins brings over a trailer, loads up all of the scraps and uses then to start fires in the winter.

Some of the scraps are roughed bowls that are cracked to bad to be able to finish. One day I noticed a few of these cracked, weathered, thick, oval, waxed, nasty looking pieces in my aunts flower garden. She was using them as pots to put plants in. Who would have thought.

Ted

There may be another reason why people will buy art/craft. At one time my daughter owned a gallery in SOHO (Broome & Broadway in NYC). In this venue she enjoyed a fairly sophisticated spectrum of patrons and artists. Here in S. Fl we have attended several fund raising art shows. Whether in NY or Fl and I suspect in Kansas or Idaho, the same purchase patterns seem to obtain.

I think people want to buy something whether to show support of a cause or to assuage their guilt over regularly consuming free wine and cheese with no thought of buying. In many cases it doesn't seem to matter what the object is, so long that it is not too expensive in the particular buyer's financial situation, but the low end goods sure sell better regardless of the clientele.

I remember Lori buying a particularly uninspiring, but surprisingly affordable painting at one art 'do'. I inquired why it never hung at our house. She replied, "we had to buy something", I say, "thank goodness for the "affordable shows". We are not alone. Many affordable paintings reside in the closets of our town.

Moral: In many venues and especially at fund raisers, don't be sure someone loved your bowl or your work found its one happy owner just because that someone bought it. Maybe they could afford it. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter