Wood Turners - The Evil Knievels of Woodworking?

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charlieb 19 years ago

I?m sure someone thought of jumping a motorcycle acrossed a bunch of cars long before the thought crossed Evil Knievel?s mind. But, until Evil Knievel, the others thought just a little bit more - and said - ?Nah. That?s too damn stupid - even for me!?. Now if you know many bikers, you know there?s a percentage of risk takers in that population which is much higher than in the general population. And even the risk takers in the biker community had ruled out something that dumb - and dangerous. Then Knievel came along and now guys are doing things on motorbikes in the X Games that probably make old Evil Knievel shudder and think ?Those SOBs are NUTS!?

Wood turners are sort of the bikers of the woodworking community. And within this sub community there are even higher percentages of risk takers than there are in the biker community. Well maybe the chainsaw carvers are the X Game folks of woodworking - but turners are a close second.

Think about it. We spin a chunk of wood at speeds wood shouldn?t travel at - even during a table saw kickback. And if standing right next to that accident waiting to happen - we poke sharp steel tools at the wood. Now THAT?s just phreakin? CRAZY. We talk about riding the bevel and tool control, but lets face it, spinning a piece of wood at 1200 rpms or more - and then applying a sharp edge to it - that we?re holding on to - thats nuts. AND - that?s just if you?re playing with the OUTSIDE of the spinning chunk of wood. Somebody - probably related in some distant way to Evil Knievel - thought to himself ?You know, if I could grip this thing from just one end and still spin it around - hell

- I could poke a sharp tool into the end of that sucker and hollow the damned thing out!?. Fortunately, emergency medical skills and knowledge developed before then. Must have since I doubt what ever skills and techniques that are needed to turn ?hollow forms? would have lasted long enough to be passed on to anyone else.

I suspect that the first guy (I?m assuming it was a guy because I KNOW women are not dumb enough to try something this dumb - and dangerous) who figured out how to turn cups and buckets couldn?t stop there. He HAD to see how tall a cup or bucket he could turn. And I can imagine the results of the early nasty ?catches? while turning one of those deep cups or buckets. I can just see the guy being hurled up and over his turning thing (the word ?lathe? probably hadn?t been coined that early) and flung up into a nearby tree - or worse yet - only his arm flying through the air - his body still at the ?turning thing? just starting to wonder - ?What the F___!?

And despite occurance such as that - a few adventurous souls took up the torch and carried on - into even more insane turning territory. And one of them asked the question ?Why should my cups have straight sides? Why not turn curves and things?? - followed by ?I wonder if I could turn a cocunut - round hollow thing - with a little hole in the top through which I can hollow out the inside??.

Now it?s bad enough to poke a sharp piece of metal into the end of a spinning piece of wood - even DEEP into a spinning piece of wood. But poking a sharp tool into the end of a spinning piece of wood - AND not being able to see what you?re doings? Come on man - you know the story of what happened to Lefty right?

But after a while, even hollow forms with very small openings wasn?t exciting enough. At some point, someone asked ?What if, instead of hollowing into end grain, I spun thick chunk of wood the other way - and poked a sharp tool into it??

Now THAT?s insane. You?d be cutting into side grain - then end grain - then side grain - then end grain. If you don?t gouge out a BIG chunk of wood doing that it?ll be a miracle. Lefty is a crazy dude - but this is too crazy even for him. Let?s grab us some mead, down a few and think this through a bit.

Despite friends misgivings and discouraging words - somebody try it. He may even have survived the first attempt. But the odds seem to always be in favor of the house. And so - the eyepatch was invented - to keep dirt and stuff out of an empty eye socket.

But - eventually - someone again picked up the torch and ventured on into unfamilair turning territory - and survived long enough to pass on the Dos and DONTs he?d learned - before The Incident.

At some point - the sharp steel tools became the limiting factor for insane things to try when turning wood. SO - somebody thought about it and - came up with turning tools that would enable some nut to try doing something even crazier to spinning chunks of wood. Who in their right mind, especially if they?d ever experienced a nasty ?catch? would think up something like a curved cutting tool that would - theoretically - let you get two, three or maybe even four bowls out of a single blank. You?d have to be one frugal mother to thing that the savings in materials would outweigh the risk to life and limb. But somebody did just that - see for yourself - it?s in the catalogues.

And speaking of frugal - who in their right mind would glue a bunch of small scraps together - and then spin it AND poke a sharp steel tool into it. I mean really - THAT IS INSANE! Thankfully an extremely patient and clever person discovered that they could make patterns in the wood - something an ordinary piece of a tree doesn?t have built into it. But come on - when you have six or seven hundred glue joints - I mean the odds of ALL off them holding up under the turning forces involved - that?s pushing the odds WAY too far.

Taking frugal to the extreme - or maybe getting REALLY artistic - someone took a chunk of wood with knot holes through it and shot with rot - and not only turned the outside - but hollowed the damned thing. Why on earth would anybody waste that much time and effort on a piece of wood that was obviously not worth the effort - and probably wouldn?t even burn worth crap?

And speaking of fire - what about the Burn - and Texture thing. You spent all that time turning a nice shape in a nice piece of wood - and now you want to apply fire to the outside - or - chop up and ?texture? the outside? Are you mad? Let?s go get us some bear and maybe go fishing. Fishing is great for thinking about stuff. Hell - we might even catch something - edible.

So looking downstream I see a turner eyeing and arc welder and thinking ?I wonder what would happen if . . .? And somewhere, in some weapons lab, a guy experimenting with shaped charges is thinking ?Why am I hollowing out a piece the same way people have been doing it for who knows how long. If I were to make a small shaped charge that would . . .?.

Eveil Knievel - in the turner?s world - you?re a cautious fellow.

charlie b who shudders when he thinks about some of the things he's seen wood turners do - and still pokes sharp steel into spinning pieces of wood - in spite of his better judgement.

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BillinDetroit 19 years ago

The crazy part of it all is that, after I've had all the fun there is in a piece of wood, someone else is often willing to buy it.

"They" call it 'art'. I call it 'wood with all the fun cut off it'. ;-)

Bill

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Prometheus 19 years ago

*snicker* Sort of reminds me of JOAT's plan on the Wreck for roughing out blanks with a power planer. Even *I* balked at the idea of that one, and I'll try just about anything.

But one question springs immediately to my mind- if turners are the bikers of the woodworking world, what are metal-spinners? The trapeeze artists? :) (I'm still pretty rotten at it, but that doesn't stop me from fitting metal disks onto the lathe with pressure and wishes, and then prying on them with big metal bars while they spin around)

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jeremy 19 years ago

The first guys had to work with a bow lathe, before the treadle was invented, so the piece spun in both directions :-)

J

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charlieb 19 years ago

Now THAT is crazy. Getting hit with a flying chunk of wood will bruise tissue and break bones. A flying table saw blade, even without the carbide teeth could remove entire extremities - or give a whole new meaning to the term split peronality.

charlie b

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nailshooter41 19 years ago

I never really got much more of a chuckle out of thinking that woodturners were wild and wooly until I saw someone (Batty the younger) turn a large, square edge bowl with a folded down rim on it as a demonstration. He pushed the speed way up there and it sounded like a large fan. It sounded like a silently powered saw blade and looked to me to be about as dangerous.

Since it was not a round bowl, the squared edges really picked up the air and scared the snot out of everyone on the first few rows in the "free throw line".

The other was when one of the club guys turned a large (14 inches long with cup that would hold a baseball) ladle/scooper on the lathes. It looked sounded like a damn helicopter. Now THAT scared the snot out of me.

And both these guys SEEM so normal...

Robert

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Tom Nie 19 years ago

Robert! Been there, done that - with Batty. He makes a point to acknowledge that everyone's going to think he's nuts. George would have conniption fits being around Batty:)

TomNie

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George 19 years ago

"Stuffing a gouge" into a spinning piece of wood, if that's what Charlie or anyone else really does, is foolish in the extreme. Doubting that's what Batty does. I'm sure there must be fifty ways to flay a feline, and even if Batty wants to put his audience at risk for the sake of showing off, let him. If all you retained from his demonstration is the sound of whirring wood, either the teacher or the pupil needs to do some rethinking.

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charlieb 19 years ago

A little artistic license please. To someone not familiar with the ways and means of wood turning it could appear to be exactly that.

There is an element of exhibitionism that seems to come to the fore in front of an audience. There is, after all, a little Ham in all of us. (hmmm - Ham? Hamlet? To Be - or Not To Be? What was the question?)

But back to the apparently dumb ass things turners try and those which become "common practice" a few years later.

Could be that a fair number of turners are self taught and somewhat reclusive - time socializing is time away from the lathe. Not knowing any better, one of them might try something that a more knowledgable turner wouldn't. If one of the "I wonder what would happen if I . . ." survivors happens to get out into the wood turners network, word of his/her "innovative" technique will spread. One or more of the "adventurist" - but not suicidal - folks will hear about it, try it, refine it, maybe even make a tool or two to make it easier/safer/ quicker to do and share what he/she is doing with another turner. In a month or two there'll be a video clip of the technique on YouTube and a few months later two or three books about it will be on the shelves at your local bookstore - after articles on the technique have been in a wood turning magazine or two.

I venture to say that wood turning has evolved faster, and in more directions, than any other form of woodworking - with solid wood funiture making being at the other end of the spectrum. It could be that solid wood furniture making has been around longer and probably was more lucrative - hence had more funds available for "capital investments" in machines that made furniture making more efficient - or just faster.

And that brings up a question. When - and why - did wood turning hit the hobbyist/amateur market? I'm guessing turners began using machinist 3 and 4 jaw chucks sometime shortly after WWII when plenty of "surplus" machines/ tools / equiptment became available - cheap. About that time "suburbs" were invented and guys, I'm betting it was probably guys, had an attached or detached garage in their new "subdivision tract home". With the GI Bill available, many of the WWII veterans got educations which earned them more money - enough to have a "disposable income", some of which could be used for "shop tools and equiptment".

Maybe it was the WWII vets that increased the share of risk taker genes in the genetic pool. After surviving an "88 shelling" and/or being shot at for three,four or five years, the idea of spinning a chunk of wood and poking it with a piece of steel didn't seem risky at all. I mean, what's the worst that could happen - relatively speaking?

It's not the pioneers that move things along - it's the farmers who come after them that use their discoveries that make civilizations.

charlie b

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George 19 years ago

Or, as has been my experience, they discover that the motions they have been using because it was "the way to do it" have a firm basis in Physics and edge theory. It's called understanding. Someone uses the tag line in another forum that the purpose of education is the teach you how to think, not what to think. When you discard the reputation, the halo effect and the particular grind or gimmick in favor of thought, you often discover (nice educational buzz-word) that the individual is doing the same as you. Of course, there are the odd clay feet out there too.

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nailshooter41 19 years ago

him. If all you retained from his >demonstration is the sound of whirring wood, either the >teacher or the pupil needs to do some rethinking.

Sounds like you know something that Tom and I don't. I had not heard of Batty putting his audience in harm's way or ever hurting an audience member. If you know of Batty putting his audience at risk, you should contact AAW and have them take a look at his methods and techniques. They will most certainly withdraw his certification as a demonstrator if they agree (he's on their insurance!).

Observation is certainly a large part of the perception process, and because I was uncomfortable with an unknown method of turning didn't mean I was in danger. My perception was obviously not the reality since I have never heard of Batty injuring anyone while demonstrating his techniques.

Setting the timing on my '59 Ford pickup was a real hair raising experience for me the first few times. Leaning over that roaring 360 with all the fumes blasting in my face, and a running motor... I didn't like it one bit and I always felt like I dodged a bullet until I had done it a few times. But in perspecitve, at that time the very same operation was being performed many times a day by thousands of mechanics. For them, setting the timing was just part of a process.

And by the way, I did indeed take something else away from Batty The Younger. He seems to have waaay too much fun turning and demonstrating. Also, he sharpens ALL his tools (at least at that time) on a 45 degree angle. Every one. That sure caught the "super full race extra fancy grind" afficianados in the club off guard!

Robert

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George 19 years ago

45 degrees is a tad blunt for fine paring, to my way of thinking, but I only keep a few tools with longer bevels than that, because, as always, there's a tradeoff. They are more prone to grab and run on entry cuts.

I noticed a significant omission in your quote. The word was "if." Changes the meaning a lot, doesn't it? I do know something about words, and that's a conditional, not a declarative.

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nailshooter41 19 years ago

Extremely talented, Batty is also a good showman and promoter. And as far as ham goes, he could put Hormel to shame.

turner wouldn't.

I personally think that is a very large part of it. Woodturning is a craft with no rules. Unlike cabinet making, dovetails must be done a certain way, fine finishing is performed in a multi faceted produre, and measuring and cutting with great precision of parts that must fit or sometimes move as a function of their existence (like a drawer) is a highly prized goal.

With woodturning, it's "hey... I made a bowl!" In the limited amount of woodturning instruction I have done in the past, I have found that with a little honest effort everyone can turn >something< in the space of a few hours. The curve to good work is not a long one. (Yeah, yeah, I know about the curve to >great< work.) Easy to get into, woodturning brings out the craftperson/artist in many of us.

Unlike fine woodworking, woodturning is the only portion of wood related crafts I know that the participants are overjoyed and brag about the acquistion of "found wood". A log at the landill is a treasure! (I certainly include myself in with them). For my cabinet making either for my business or my pleasure it is hard thing for me to let go of a few hundred dollars on wood alone. Throwing a chunk of unknown in the back of a pickup or raiding a firewood pile is a lot more pleasing than letting go of more dough. And damn... there is so much "found wood" out there.

Couldn't agree more. The explosion of this aspect of woodworking over the last fifteen years has been dramatic.

the hobbyist/amateur market?

My thoughts (as specifically related to woodturning only) are not so philosophic as yours. I think the explosion of woodturning was market driven by two things. I think that there were a lot of men that were looking for hobbies that involved wood and working with their hands, making them feel like a traditional craftsman. Seemed like this happened somewhere on the 80s or so. Around this time, Woodcraft started to really make a move.

Coincidntally, this is about the time Builder's Square, Home Depot, Lowe's, etc. really started their nuclear explosion of growth.

Whilst perusing a local bookstore's magazine rack, I saw an article on the next thing I believe changed the woodturning world forever.

The Jet Mini.

It was an affordable lathe that didn't scrimp on features. And although I took my original blue mini back three times to get a solid one, they had the right idea. You could get an honest machine, and a real lathe at an affordable cost. All cast iron, heavy enough to do some real work on, and good customer support. Besides, buy it at Woodcraft and they had a ONE YEAR satisfaction guarantee at the time.

It was a first "starter lathe"; a a good lathe to use everyday. It was a great lathe to take to demos as it was portable. When we had a turning day in our club of 6 in 1997, literally everyone had one to bring to the meeting. Sure, some had other lathes, but everyone had a mini.

And they didn't swallow a garage up when you bought one. At 60 pounds, you could build a stand like your router table, and you were in. You could practice the basics of turning in the privacy of your own home as much as you wanted using "found wood". How cool was that?

But with so many turning, and so many round things being turned, most of us got bored after a while. So... boredom certainly being a factor in pushing new boundaries, all manner of woodturning came up. Why not leave square edges? Why not leave natural edges? Why not turn off center? Then the segment guys raised the bar again. All of that sure beat the daylights out of turning round bowls.

As woodturning caught fire, manufacturers responded. It was new, it was easy, and easy to teach. Now with a compact, movable, and most importantly an affordable quality tool all the ingredients were in place. In a flood of attempts to cash in and find a niche, every aspect of woodturning became game.

And unlike cabinet making which can literally take decades to master (if you ever do) and thousands of dollars in machines, at the time many of today's woodturners reached pominence a few years ago, they had only been turning for a few years themselves. Of course we aren't talking about Soren Berger, Peter Childs, Rude Olsonik, and those guys.

But when I saw Trent Bosch demo at Texas Turn or Two (now known as SWAT) in '97, he was turning on the balcony of his apartment when weather permitted. I'm not too sure he was even out of his twenties.

I think many mistake the fact (and fall for the romance of the idea) that some of the demo guys and artists that are so well known today have been turning for a hundred years. (When I started "in the trades", you weren't trusted as a full charge carpenter until you had about 7 - 10 years full time under your belt). In fact, there are many that have taken up turning only on the awareness that retirement was looming or had already happened.

It is no secret that many of them and many of our ranks took up the hobby later in life. I think the demographics of just about any club would show a vast majority of turners older than 55, and in our club the average age is +/-68.

When I asked these guys when they started and why, almost to a man they said it was just before or after retirement. Not wanting to spend decades to learn fine woodworking, then finishing, then design, etc, it was a perfect hobby to start right in on in the corner of the garage without overloading yourself with bulky equipment, and committing a large chunk of your life learning many aspects of a craft you may never be good at.

Woodturning for most is fun, and it gives the opportunity for doable projects, ones that can be finished in a weekend or two, some as little as a day. What's not to like about that? For me, I love going out to the shop knowing I am going to make a couple of Christmas ornaments (or whatever) before I leave.

come after them that use their > discoveries that make civilizations.

Truer words never spoken. History is replete with inventors, entrepreneurs, and artists that have ended their lives penniless and forgotten.