A> I went to mall, after mall, after mall, and I looked at A> commercially available ski sweaters and noting that they were A> not as suitable for skiing as sweaters available 40 years ago. [...]
A> These designers try to maximize the A> appeal of their garments. Since more Yankees go to the mall, A> than go skiing or sailing, these designers produce garments A> that are more suitable for mall wear than for skiing or for A> sailing. My post was to remind hobby knitters of the A> traditions of knitting on finer needles.
But here's the problem. I can knit a historically accurate fisherman's sweater or ski sweater, and make it nice and warm -- but then, I'm not out in the freezing winter rain on the ocean, or even on the ski slopes, and so I can't wear the sweater without sweltering in the heat. What's better -- a historically accurate sweater that I never wear because it's just too hot, or a historically inaccurate sweater that I can actually wear?
Good Morning Aharon , I am soorry you misread my serious answers like that,i am just afraid that the materials we write here, might be read as 100 % checked out Holy truth. And none of us is so knowledgeable, We each can add our observations and opinions and should be careful to State that fact. I am not more expertised than you , we each have the knowledge we are more experted in as well as other parts we are less knowledgeable about. As you know i am now writing a book [mostly translating docs and letters] some od which are parts of a big puzzele, some are written in codes. At times i can use info in one letter to explain the other at times i can get an answer to a detail by stories i heard. First of all Every detail i explain i tell the source , the realted info i have etc,,, if i have more than 1 story about a ceratin fact i give all the stories , writing that Aunt A told story 1, and Friend B told story 2 .This seems the right way to do it .... When i wasn`t there or can`t talk to the person that was there. One day i read a doc by 4 people who were in same place for a long time , their stories aren`t exactly the same , since memory and perceptions aren`t 100% the same. Back to knitting , if you read the story of the man who invented the sock machine the Reverend William Lee you read Different variations of the story. Thus i think there are some right facts in each version and some `elaborated by time` facts in each version as well..I am sorry if i sounded serious in my writing. When one is experted in reading docs, one learns to try and be extremely cautious, to say when one has all eveidence or one speculates or esp when one adds Later Understandings of the facts. Your Scientific Data was not all known to the people who just did things because experience and accumulated tradition showed them , this way fitted their needs. I have had my share of students who come to me theories, built on their [own] observation of a picture or an article , without checking the source or possibility. Also as an ex Librarian, and while proofreading researches i have to be specific about those matters. Even as curator when i deal with artists working on their art and raising questions, i have at times to ask those questions.
It is very kind of you that you want to entertain us, but if that comes on the cost of being specific , it is dangerous. Before you know it somebody somewhere will teach your `joke` as scientific fact, and use the amgic word ,, source ,,, Internet ,,,,,, [ not specifying that or not knowing that some of your matrial was meant as entertainment not as Scientific facts. Becuse your entertainmental material is hidden between other facts written in Scientific Jargon. I hope this clarifies to you , my concern and why i react so seriously to your writings.
This is exactly what worries me !!! if your writing is partly entertainment you should Label it with a note saying this !!!
yes as i wrote above this is a dangerous approach, when done on a public place without Notifying the prospective reader about this fact.
There we go again , could you please use words as tried, collected experience, knowledge of generation , why do you insist of using this words TRUE,,, Real etc,,,, This is terminologyusual used by fanatical people who are misionaries of their own Ideaology, not scientific /researcher`s terminology.
i appreciate you trying it on yourself , but i also insist that trying ONLY on yourself doesn`t make it TRUE , it makes it true for you . Many people have different reactions to cold and warmth . i am cold when many of my friends already complain it is hot !!!
I assume many of the ladies here do this kinds of testing, just as they do Guaguing.
Just as i said this a very Subjective feeling!!! We aren`t all alike in our reactions to tempratures.
Good point !!!! just as i wrote people did things by tradition , not sceintific knowledge .
Have you ever contacted various Schools that Teach Textiles,and esp technology of Textiles] many of them have highly developed Research about clothes, Many of the Newly developed clothes [sports, Space clothes, Clothes against fire , or against Nuclear , Bacterial and Gaz warfare , clothes for Operation theatres etc,,] Hundreds of many developed researches, The swimming atheletes have special researched clothes that will minimize friction with water , so that they can swim that extra 1/1000 minute to become champions...Thus my question is if you have read some of all those researches,,, esp about Isolating clothes/ materials.
Why would you need those ? what is the reason behind this quest? please elaborate me on this curiousity? >The garments described in Gladys
Of all the things you wrote this is most pleasant thing, so people had fun knitting and wearing those clothes. Aharon , people made clothes also for Decorative accents in their lives , not only for Utility !!! Please remember that trends and values have changed over the generations, Don`t always judge a clothing item in our contemporary ideas. People in former times might have ideas we aren`t aware of now.
I explained it well , still i think the use of the word REAL , doesn`t make your rsearch stronger or more scientific. And Ps i am also too thrilled by the word Death , why not disappearnace , decline etc???
Maybe you are aware of the Knittings found in the Middle East .... Dura Eropous, the `Egyptian Socks` etc...those who are knit are quite loose , only the Naaildbounded ones are not loose in knits. You have to remember that people in former times weren`t so well provided with Needles of many sizes, nore with a regolar source of threads, they used handspun that wasn`t always regular in thickness .
Bt this deffinition most my sweaters are fishermen`s sweater, they fit me snuggly and are warm ...
Abaya is worn by both gendres.
i used to wear KLOMPEN with straw in Holland .
i am glad you are doing all those tests, and hope they will result in a worthy cause !!! But i wonder if you aren`t reinventing some wheels ,,, or repeating tests that have already been done??????
Well i was told about this Years ago, tried out some of the stuff myself and left it at that , i also was taught that some of the patterns , were knitted into the works copying Elements that were around the knittters , Ropes and knots of robes were quite common on those boats .... Also ceratin knitting patterns allowed the ID of drown fishermen to know what village they were from .
And don`t forget Availability of Materials !!!!!
And i believe that the people who lived further out in harsher conditions were poorer , had less availability of `finer` materials, they had to make stuff quicker in order to stay alive,,, thus caurser stuff was made for home use , finer stuff if any was made to be sold!!!! This was and still is in many places the order of life. Although i am married to a physicist. I tend to try out my own experiments... I don`t argue with you i just look at things from a different point of view. And while i lived 2 years in Manchester UK, and 2 years in Boston USA , i had to endure COLD weathers , and had loads of experience wearing my knits.... I think i wrote enough in this subject ,,,, i explained to you my reason for voicing my opinions, I am in no argument with you. I just have different experiences , different level of Thermal feelings, and think in different venues than you do... thanks for the interesting discussion. i just keep an open mind.. ps i asked around ,,, 18 people alll told me they never wear a sweater without something beneath it , as one layer will not be warm enough. Wore yesterday my thin [ knitted on 3 mm] shirt brrrrrr it wasn`t enough] .... mirjam
Tamar this is interesting , army regulation socks for men are made of thin wool , they are worn Summer and winter, the are processed so that isolate and absorb sweat , much better than cotton socks , of which the women`s regulation socks are made. mirjam [look at my Army Sock artwork on my site !!!!]
Different effect. The thick socks squeezed your feet, cutting down on blood flow and producing cold feet. If you are going to wear thicker socks, you gotta have bigger boots.
There may be an example of one of the hazards in communications across borders and cultures here. The phrase "tried and true" sort of falls in the category of slang in American English. It may be used literally, of course, but it is probably more frequently used simply to identify something that has been so commonly done or used that people think of it as not needing further examination even though that might not be the actual case. When translated literally it may imply a scientific examination that is far from the writer's meaning.
Sometimes I am sure I use phrases like that here without thinking to put them in quotes or identify them - though I know that many of the things that enter casual conversation can cause misunderstanding if taken literally.
Did you wear one of those sweaters out on your walk in the snow? Did it keep you warm? If so - you really are keeping useful knitting traditions alive, and more power to you!
Sitting at a keyboard in a cool office sometimes requires warmer clothing than being active in colder conditions.
For windier, colder conditions, the sweater that I am current knitting for myself, is from yarn that weighs 930 yards per pound (almost worsted weight) knit on US # 1 needles for a gauge of 7.3 stitches per inch. The swatches look thin, but they sure block the breeze. Aaron
In cold weather, I put a boot cover over the outside of my boots to keep my feet warm. And, leg warmers are very practical, even if I can not get my young niece to wear them. I do.
True, handspun isn't always perfectly regular. On the other hand, handspun yarn can be very fine and even. With years to practice and no distractions, people can become expert. Remember, every stitch the old-time kings and queens wore was handspun (spinning wheels still count as handspun).
Update: I'd just like to mention that the fragments found at Dura Europos (dated no later than 456 AD, when the town was burned) are now considered to be nalbinding. The evidence is that one of the increases is done in a way that is easy and obvious in nalbinding, but takes extreme effort to do in knitting.
The so-called "Coptic socks" are almost all nalbinding (I say almost because opinions differ on a few examples and I haven't seen them myself).
There is multicolored nalbinding from South America that is worked with threads finer than modern sewing thread.
The Egyptian _socks_ from the 10th to the 12th century AD are from the era of the Fatimid dynasty, when fabulous textile works were made that took literally years of effort, many to be stored away in treasure houses. The socks were worn and show the wear marks, but they are done very finely; the _coarsest_ cotton sock fragment that I know of from that time and place is 10.25 stitches/inch (4 stitches/cm). My source for that is _Tissus d'Egypte_, the (expensive) exhibition catalogue from a major textile exhibit.
There are some "mystery objects" from the same era that have the same number of stitches per inch but have a coarser row gauge (5 rounds per cm as compared to 8 rounds per cm for the socks). They seem to have been made on slightly bigger needles, possibly as practice pieces. They are just short tubes with big loopy ends.
The color-work wool fragments from the same time and place are all finer, ranging from 5 stitches/cm (10.8 st/inch) to
10 stitches per cm (25.6 st/inch).
For comparison: Knitting with Number 8 perle cotton on size 0000 needles, the best I can do is to average 6 stitches/cm (16 stitches/inch). I think finer and softer wool would produce a finer result.
Jct Please , Even if Aharon used it literary, he should be very exact with his texts. Having examimed , reserched and proofread researchers in my life, i know that one comes closer to the reality by not using this phrases. As close as one comes to the supposed truth , one never knows for real . I am not in the habit of translating literary , Aharon writes in a seemingly Scientific manner and claims that he researches in scientific manner , hence he should be careful with his fact giving language.
When you write here , you don`t do it under the hood of Scientific research ,,, so you are more free to use any terminology you want ... Aharon, leads us to the conclusion that he checks things from the Physics knowlege...thus his terminology is read in the same mood.
Haa Elsje ,, you are right of course ,, but this was the core of this discussion, Aharon `s complaint that the sweaters he called real and true are dead,,,, i think that knitting has been revived , i KNOW that we all knit contemporary sweaters , in which we incoprprate loads of learned experience of former generations !!!!! we all accumulated loads of new scientific knowledge about knitting , we have a better choised of threads, as well of needles ,,,,, No thank you i don`t want to go back to Former materials and formats that aren`t good for me. Life being enough complicated, I am as kin as you Aharon to know a lot of the Hows and whys of former times, But there are other ways to tell about it. mirjam
I look at the fishermen's sweaters that actual fishermen wore in the 1930s, and then contemporary directions for knitting exact replicas according to traditional methods, that included: a firmly spun yarn, knitted tightly on fine needles. I think we can agree that these are "real fishermen's sweaters."
The characteristics of these sweaters included: great warmth*, a distinctive aesthetic, and substantial durability.
A loosely knit fisherman's sweater is an oxymoron. It is not knit in the traditional manner. It does not have adequate warmth to protect an actual fisherman while s/he is working. It does not have the distinctive aesthetic that results from small stitches in a firm fabric. A loosely knit sweater will have less durability.
Now, if a garment does not have any of the characteristics of a "real fisherman's sweater", how can we call it a "fisherman's sweater?"
If you use the Craft Yarn Council of America recommendations for yarn, needles, and gauge (see yarnstandards.com), when you knit a sweater, then by the comparison to the traditional sweaters worn by authentic fishermen in the 1930s, it will be a VERY loosely knit sweater. It will not be nearly as warm*. It will have a very different aesthetic. It will not be as durable. It certainly may have its own virtues. It may be beautiful. It may be a work of art. It may feel wonderful. But, it is not a REAL fishermen's sweater.
I stand by my use of the word real!
CYCA yarn standards are on the yarn bands of most yarn sold in the US today. Any beginning knitter that wants to knit a real fisherman's sweater, and looks at the traditional patterns, and reads the yarn bands is going to be very confused. I was.
A CYCA yarn standard, worsted weight sweater has twenty-something thousand stitches it. An authentic fisherman's gansey has maybe a hundred-thousand stitches in it. Think of stitches as dollars, and that is the difference between a Honda automobile and a Rolls Royce limousine. I like my Honda, but I do not pretend that it is a Rolls limo.
Aaron
*Man, woman, or child, if you are out fishing, in the wet and wind and cold, you need great warmth. Those that have a warm gansey return. Those that do not, perish. My wife goes snow camping with me - no problem. She will not go fishing with me anymore, because the last time she went fishing with me, she got cold.
Aharon ,,, [you see how you influence my writing mood , going back to the REAL TRUE way your name should be written and pronounced] :>:>:>
I am full of respect for your researches and they add an intersting flavour to my doing and working with fiber, And i really hope you see my answers as they are meant , as a friendly sharing of information , between professional Colleagues. I respect your standing on your idea of calling thos sweaters REAL.... But now i have a question for you , to me the REAL sweaters would be those you examined === the Originals you inspected ,,,, All newly knitted ones would be called by me Knitted in the Ski Or Fishermen`s STYLE ...since they are contemporarry reknits of the older patterns...
i see my Archeologist colleagues fainting if we would have presented any of our Exact Copies of antique textiles as REAL ... In fact they would have called the police and accused us of forgery .. or if the things were real we might have been accused of possible theft... you see where our perceptions of real and true must differ????
The Archeological world , and as a result the Historical research is FULL with REAL copies, Many an expert has fallen and saw a fake as a real thing ... That is why our proffessors were extremely careful with us yto be exact, Just as my father [linguist]taught me that one must always use the correct word. Come to think of it you want to say that you want us or to knit those sweaters in the EXACT technique , and materials and exact gugaue that you and others have researched, in the sweaters that you have seen and those you read about .... How about phrasing this in this way ? would you agree to this ?
????????/please elaborate on that ????? Which Fishermen are you speaking about Dutch ? English ? Greek ??? African ??? mirjam
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