Before I moved down here (Metairie, LA, a suburb of New Orleans), I only used my kitchen to store Coca-Cola and OJ. But after moving, I discovered that my immediate area had no good bread and I am used to GOOD bread (moved from New York City). So I began to MAKE MY OWN!!!!! Now I spend a good deal of time in the kitchen, not only to make bread!
Ever since I started I have had the same problem, which I am sure would be solved if only I had a baker to watch what I do. I make my bread totally by hand, no bread machine or mixer.
But my problem is a) my bread is too dense (not airy or light enough) or b) my bread is flatter than it ought to be. Also, the top never loks anything like the light-golden brown I see on good bread.
I have bene told that I let my 2nd rise go too long and that it's HUMID doen here and to use less water.
As there is no recipe to look see initially these are my comments:
If the bread is dense, there are many factors that can cause it, among are:
The flour used likely has lower in gluten( common in southern states,where the all purpose has lower protein content that what is usually available in northern states
Are you thoroughly familiar with hand kneading and the required end point when to stop?
Did you ferment the dough properly and have it knocked back then letting it rise again?
Did you use the right amount of yeast?
b) my bread is flatter than it ought to be. Also, the top never
A dough that is fermented for a short time before being divided and molded results in a young dough that led to flattish appearing bread.
doen here and to use less water.
If what you mean by second rise is the proofing, yes if its allowed to stay longer than required the bread will also appear flattish looking( called in bakery parlance as overproofed dough which results with pale crust).
This can be improved by baking at higher temperature to force the dough to kick start the dough expansion.
IMO humidity is not the issue here, as its needed by the dough to keep the proofing even and no crust drying will occur. What you have to look for is the fermentation time. If the dough appears flattish then you have to reduce the proofing time and use the finger indent test to see if your dough is properly risen: If when pushed gently with finger tips the dough springs back immediately, it needs more rising time Whereas if the indentation remains in the dough, its already on the way to overproofing A properly proofed dough when gently pressed with finger will gradually springs back the indentation. If it happens that the risen dough tends to decrease in volume when pressed, its already overproofed,
BTW, just like what Boron suggested if you can show the recipe with the procedure many people can pitch in and give yuo valuable suggestion.
Thank you Chembake, I will try to apply your thinking the next times I make bread.
My problem with placing a recipe is I have used 4 recipes from 3 different books and they all have the same problems. It is either my location, my oven or me. I suspect it's ME. While I think I am doing what I ought to, I have no one watching to interrupt with "you moron, don't do THAT! The recipe doesn't say THAT!"
You don't need to worry if you have little experience in bread making...
if you are really interested in this craft and diligent in your practice ,you will learn fast...Just don't be disappointed when your loaf turns out NOT to your expectation ;rather try to analyze your methods and recipes , try to find out where did it go wrong...
This troubleshooting part is what makes baking ... an enjoyable and interesting hobby..
bread. But it is the recipe I have used most >often. Keep in mind: I have
of bread I bake on a cookie sheet rather than in a >loaf pan; it spreads rather than rises, but >even my loaf bread rises >inadequately.
You are following the standards of the British Bread baking.Their kind of breads are supposed to be heavier than American type breads of the same genre. One major factor is that British flour has slightly lower gluten content that typical American breadmaking flours.
The recipe looks okay...but the way you are making it maybe what makes the difference. First...did you knead the dough until fully developed...? really smooth? Following the timing is not enough....people have different physical fitness and the kneading process can affected by that also...An underdeveloped dough can lead to heavier loaves with lesser volume. Did it pass the window pane test?
Is the dough wet appearing...or slack. If that is that way then its you have to reduce your water content slightly. A firmer dough is not likely to flatten out during rising. Did you mold your bread tightly... ? that is a factor that can influence the bread to flatten during proofing....which is the result of loose molding.It takes some time to be proficient in bread molding.
light as professional bread
What is your basis for the so called professional bread..? It is the one you can buy from nearby supermarket...? or from specialty artisanal bakeries...? If you are looking for the former then you will have difficulty in getting it to rise to the lightness....These folks are using additives to enhance the bread volume.... Meanwhile artisanal breads are not necessarily light nor heavy....however it depends upon the kind of bread also. One way to improve the crumb texture is to add diastatic malt as that will open up the crumb grain and improve oven spring...the malt can be in syrup or in powder form.. Another thing that improves volume and symmetry is to increase the salt by half a teaspoon but first bulk ferment it twice. Most UK professional bread contains 2 tsp salt per 500 grams of flour. By then the dough is really stable and can withstand better with increased rising time which results is bigger loaves.
Ferment one and a half hour then knock it back and let it rise more by quarter of an hour then divide it let it rest for 15 minutes then mold.
Allow it to rise properly and check by using the indent test before you bake it. Push your fingertip into the dough and if it retracts immediately it needs more rising... If the indentation slowly springs back....then its right for baking Try these things and let us see the result
I've been trying to get home-made French bread to approximate the bakery versions for an article I'm writing. They haven't been bad, but neither were they good.
A Northern Italian professional baker who recently located near here said my proportions were fine, but I needed to change the times and volumes of rise. He also said I should let it work at 75°F rather than warmer or cooler.
Mix with cool water. He said it can be done in a mixer, by hand or in a processor. As long as the dough doesn't get warm. Knead 50 strokes. Put into a bowl, cover with plastic wrap and let rise.
First rise takes between 1 1/2 and 2 hours (in a bowl that he said not to grease, so I didn't, and a tiny bit stuck. Not enough to make a difference.), but only rises to about 150% of initial volume. It rises, but it's dense. Then punch down and knead 50 strokes, floured board. Let rest for a few minutes and roll and pull to a 14-inch rectangle and roll from the wide sides into the center (as though making palmiers). Pinch the seam, turn it on its side and roll/pull again. And bring in the sides again and pinch it closed. Let rise on floured towel (no sticks to hold them up - dough stiff enough not to need it) seam side up, covered with floured towels, until it rises to three times volume. Roll over onto peel, slash and bake on a stone or a baguette pan (done both and both were excellent) at 450°F for 20 minutes (throw 1/2 cup water into the oven), lower heat to 400°F for another 20 minutes.
It's all wrong if my school baking instructors are to be believed. Overworked. Dough too stiff - 460 grams flour (strange mixture - 450 grams high gluten and 10 grams whole wheat - never heard of anything like that), 300 gms water (salt, yeast) - and this 75°F is either too cool or too warm depending on whether a warm or cold rise, by normal processes.
The bread was wonderful. When it was cooling, it "sang" as the crust crackled. The inside was chewy and light, even bubbles, moist crumb, no sign of layers. Clean crust. I washed one with egg white to see how it would take and it shined like it was made of golden glass. Very high gloss, full gelatinization in the crust, no porosities except in the slash, which I didn't wash.
What do you think of this recipe approach? Three rises, two full kneads and then the forming and shaping that was to roll out, fold and re-roll and re-fold. Triple volume for the shaped loaves? I also tried it with quick-rise yeast and, as I expected, the finished flavor was nowhere near as good as with the Red Star dry active. Texture was good, slightly faster, but it tasted like supermarket French bread.
Hi Bob! It seems that your dough is still young when you punched it.I am not aware if the yeast you are using is really that active or the amount is sufficient.I have some perception that the dough is rather tight.
I don't understand that procedure what is the need for 50 strokes....? Is Gary Coleman the baking tutor of your instructor..?. Different strokes for different folks? But That procedure will result in a tighter crumb...which can be elastic
Bob that is not the way how to mold a French stick properly,,,but that is how beginners used to mold their breads. Or Unless the bread is really firm that rolling it like a Swiss roll is the way to get an even dimension of the loaf.
The water should be thrown earlier to create steam, before the loaves are loaded and not after,,,maybe the oven is leaky...?Anyway some people do that and still can get a satisfactory crust but not the best.
Your recipe states 460 grams flour and 450 grams high gluten flour and
10 grams whole wheat flour. Assuming your first flour is all purpose and the second is high gluten then the total flour protein content
460/920 x11 + 450/920 x14 +10/920 X 14.5=3D5.5 +6.85 +0.15=3D12.5% protein, still within range for a general purpose bread flour.Now you added 300 grams water for a 920 grams flour ?...you are making an extremely tight dough.!Think about it the absorption is 32 %.
This looks like a recipe for a pasta dough not a bread dough to me... It might have been better If he replaced all the flour combination with durum semolina (the yeast was not added) and the water replaced with eggs and then passed to the pasta machine . I think your teacher was a former pasta maker who think he can convert his pasta recipe into bread by modification of the ingredients and including some yeast. I am sorry to tell....this instructor of yours baking skills is of an apprentice bread baker...I think you can teach him how to do breads better than the other way around...I know a lot of chefs are moonlighting as bread bakers and indeed many of them can attain good bread making skills.
Hmmn...I would imagine the dough is humming the Ride of the Valkyrie by Wagner...I mean the cracking can have a rhythm..?
IMO a French bread does not need to be washed...but as that is in the home situation and not the ideal oven for such item, that will help the crust formation and browning but the color will not look natural.
Honestly...I don't find the recipe and methods represent true French bread.. It's a mish mash of pasta making and bread making! First the dough is tight and the crumb grain is expectedly tp be closed grained ( which is a defect). A dough for French bread should be soft not tight. The crumb should be irregular and open and the crust appearance does not necessarily be glassy appearing but will have crust cracking in some places. The slash should expand extensively even showing the surface to bulge. The use of firm dough is like some women who inject silicone in their bosoms to create a bold look.. Yes it looks nice and sexy, But ...I don't get turned on by that..
That's reasonable if done properly...with proper recipe.
If the dough was undermixed or made by autolysis method there is a need for some kneading but if the dough is fully mixed... its not recommended as that will further tighten (and oxidize) the dough resulting in blander bread taste.
tried it >with
BTW what kind of yeast were you using is it compressed, or instant? The supposed better flavor from Red Star dry active was from the autolysis by product of dead yeast cells .That will produced peptones and peptides which are enzymatically broken down to more amino acids and degradation products of yeast cells( nucleic acids ) that provide better bread aroma than with bread made with fresh yeast nor instant yeast which is deficient in such dead cells.
I am not sure what you mean by faster, but its expected that the bread taste slightly better than cardboard...
The dough *is* tight. That's why I was asking your opinion about it. I let it develop for 1 1/2 hours before the second kneading.
I know. And it should have produced an extremely chewy bread. But it didn't.
I usually have done it as a single roll from one side. It's been good enough, but this result was far better.
I didn't write it well. I threw the water in and maybe 30 seconds later put the bread in.
Oops. I meant that it was 460 grams total, comprised of 450 grams bread flour and 10 grams whole wheat. Sorry for the confusion.
King Arthur unbleached bread flour - 12.7%. King Arthur traditional whole wheat - 14.2%
32% hydration, and Schwarzenegger couldn't work it...
Actually comes to a little over 12.7% protein, a small fraction over.
300 grams water for a total of 460 grams flour.
65% hydration. This is actually a bit higher than what we did in my restaurant. There, with constant, low-pressure steam injection, we used a 58% standard.
Not quite that tight... but I see how you thought that.
No rhythm. But a nice melody. Just that quiet crackling sound from a good crust in the moments after coming out of the oven.
Understand. I washed it after taking it out of the oven. I don't like the color of breads egg-washed before.
Sorry for the confusion. For a minute I couldn't understand how you got your 32% figure... Then I looked closer.
I know. But it's a good protection in case they fall forward.
I think the dough needs more fermentation before it needs to be punched. 1.5 times the increase in volume is not enough. It should have at least doubled in volume before you knock it down.
a finger indent could indicate if its right for the first punch
If that is the case then the kneading was not that strenuous to tighten the gluten? It was just a means to create a form of a tight skin on the dough and allow it to subdivide the bigger gas cells into half or lesser pore diameters.
On re reading the post yeah , it just came to my mind that is one way I used to mold my baguette by first pressing the well rested dough piece to an oblong shape and then from the wide side fold it into the center , then fold it in half then from starting from the wide side roll it toward you until you reach the end of the other side then using the heel of your hand press it to seal the seam evenly and rolling it a few times to get the well rounded shape and rolling it back and forth while your hands are moving opposite of each other until you reach the ends of the cylindrical dough. This technique is commonly used by bakers who hand mold baguettes.
This is the way how the machine mold that particular dough to shape.
Hmnn that method is familiar , yes but if we baked on a baguette pan the seams are put underneath not above; however if we proofed it on cloche we placed the seam upward which we arrange it on the canvas setter seam down before we load it into the oven.
Ahh , that make sense...
Oops. I meant that it was 460 grams total, comprised of 450 grams bread
flour and 10 grams whole wheat. Sorry for the confusion.
At 65% hydration and 12.7% protein it will be firm dough that does not spread much during baking but will maintain its symmetrical rounded shape when baked.
I know what you mean....the melody of cracking crust is like a musical rap by Eminem or 50 Cents.?..
A French bread that has a fine even grained is frowned by old time French bakers as not authentic , but a bastardized version. I remember one time a visiting French baker in one bakery described that appearance as a sign of mediocre skill to the one who made it.
Ahh that makes sense ,, yes indeed ...an egg white glaze is sometimes used b y some bakers in the hotel kitchen to impress the executive chef...
One time in the past I remember one proud hotel baker ; who ,in front of the executive chef the head baker tried to impress him of the quality of the glaze of his freshly baked bread that ; took his cap and tried to use the reflection of the egg white glazed bread to check if his new hair cut was right.
Now that everything is clear, the method looks alright but regarding the recipe, I am not sure if the one and a half hour first fermentation is sufficient as the bread appears to be young when knocked down. If the recipe was like this ratio 100/65/2/2 which corresponds to flour/water/ fresh yeast/ and salt. Its not enough . At that protein level of 12.7 it might need more water to get the softer consistency
Yup..... bread or women falling over .......a firm dough or silicone reinforced bosom could offer some protection...
Going back to the direction you stated that the bread is first kneaded
50 strokes that after mixing allowed to ferment in bulk for 1.5 to 2 hours then its knocked down and kneaded 50 times then allowed to rest for few minutes then divided and allowed to rest again before its rolled to a rectangle prior to final molding. Now if the flour has a high protein level say nearly 13% then to get the dough temperature of around 75 degF you can't mix it until well developed and that is one reason why it does not rise as well to get a double or triple the volume of the first bulk fermentation..Assuming the dough is undermixed then that answers the question why there is a need to knead 50 strokes twice.... \That state of undermixed dough from a strong flour is also conducive in providing a close grained crumb texture. Another comment is that the fermentation time was not applied properly to result in the right fermentation maturity so that the bread flavor is maximized. I anticipate that this particular system was unable to get the best flavored French bread. It should be allowed to mature for at least two hours , then knocked back, folded and then allowed to rise for an hour, then divided and formed into loaves allowed to rest for half and hour before its finally molded to the proper shape. With these later method the crumb grain will be more open and looks more of a French bread and is expected to have better flavor. I anticipate that the oven spring will be just as good( or even better) and the bread appearance is more bold looking.
If the baker only wants to ferment at the system you have shown he should just have use all purpose flour and reduced the hydration by 5% to get a formula ratio of 100/60/2/2. or flour/ water/ fresh yeast and salt. Even with such reduced gluten content by using a medium gluten flour (
11%) the lack of good fermentation is still insufficient to bring out the desired bread flavor.
It would have been better if that is the system ( you related) if he just added and old refrigerated dough from yesterdays batch so it could have improved the bread quality dramatically.
One further comment from the Italian baker , he is more keen to bake French bread in the way how Italians made their bread. In the same way how foreign bakers interpret that bread similarly..
By the way did the bread really taste good and how was it when cooled 5 hours after?
By thinking about the methods the bread did not provide much flavor as the fermentation is short and the flour is a bit strong
It truly was the best home-made crusty bread I've ever tasted - mine or anyone else's. It was better than the average bakery bread and was only beaten by very good bakery product. Good texture. Good crust. Good flavor. I'm still amazed. As you would expect, it was almost stale the next day. It made wonderful croutons, good French toast. I grilled a few slices for bruschetta; tasted good and was correctly crispy.
My 14-year-old daughter came home with some friends who saw the loaves resting on the kitchen island. They thought it was bakery bread when they saw it it looked like it. My daughter asked if she could have some. Two 1-pound loaves, 4 ounces butter gone between 6 teenagers. My daughter mixed 1/2 cup olive oil and a couple tablespoons good balsamic to dip. The other kids tried that, too. Sounds like me at that age. Eat anything that doesn't move.
Two of the kids are in my daughter's French class where her teacher brings bread from an upscale bakery near her house. One kid said it was better than that bread.
The total fermentation time for the three rises of that batch was 5 1/2 hours, and the kitchen smelled like it. That wonderful bread-wine smell from the fermentation.
I shaped the loaves and let them rise sitting on floured towels, seam up. They held shape very well. I rolled them over onto a floured peel to slide onto the baking stone, seam down. The dough was light, but still firm enough to show slight traces of the seam when baked.
The ones I did on the baguette pan were equally good, maybe even a bit better. The bottom crust wasn't as thick as the bread baked on stone.
If you said that the first fermentation was 2 hours then few minutes in between brisk kneading plus some minutes in intermediate proof then the total is just within 3 hours...now the proofing is around 1 1/2 to
2 hours.. total of five hours plus half and hour of baking .
.That is a somewhat short for classical good quality French bread IMO and experience Five and half hours is not enough to produce the desired fermentation flavor that is produced by artisanal type french bread which is the considered the yardstick for quality ...
An old time French baker whom I had worked for some time in the past remarked that ordinary french bread made in many parts of France in midnight and baked in the morning ,,,is just ordinary tasting...
If you are already happy with that kind of bread .....then good for you..
First fermentation - 1 1/2 hours. second - 2 hours third - 2 hours. At cool room temperature.
30-35 minute bake time.
I agree. But this isn't classical French bread.
I confess that I prefer a Parisian-style bread over the more artisanal or rustic loaves. Living in Paris and then Brussels probably prejudiced me in that regard.
Everybody's an expert about what they like, no...? My German neighbor in New Jersey used to make her dough one morning and bake it the next morning. 24 hours development for her bread which she started with a "poolish," about which she said, and with which I agreed, it gave a wonderful "mature yeast flavor" as she used to say.
I made four loaves Sunday. Company for afternoon conversation and dinner. They sipped wine (I may have had a little myself) and watched me make bread. We ate two with dinner. They took two home and left me with none. More tomorrow after the radio program.
Is this just bulk or total fermentation including proofing...?
I was interpreting your recipe as bulk fermentation 1-1/2 to 2 hours then knock down knead briskly and let rest for few minutes. The time involved after the initial fermentation plus hand in kneading and intermittent rest is roughly an hour maximum. So I estimated it to be
3 hours. Then you said its was more than 5 hours how could it be.... Its either the proofing takes 2 hours. or more.. How long is the proofing time...or can you describe the fermentation and proofing duration?
There is a difference between true fermentation ( which is occurs when the dough is mixed and right after the dough is loaded in the oven before the yeast is inactivated by heat) and bakers fermentation, in which the latter many bakers consider it more as bulk fermentation and does not include the proofing stage. I was thinking along the line of true fermentation in your case... So what is the real score...? is the total fermentation time includes the bulk, including knockdown the intermediate and final proof?
Because if you say so I still cannot believe that you can extract good bread flavor from that.... Unless the fermentation was really long enough and not what I expected earlier.
That answers the question that Old French baker I mentioned above that he lamented that his countrymen does not know anymore what real bread is..... I told him all of those bread are real.....he frowned on me. And said...It is just that modern people specially the younger generation (like me) does not care about good bread anymore.....I insisted to him all of these bread are good...! Maybe for you ...as you have never undergone my training.....but for me ... No.....if you only think how we are trained differently in the past and how we are taught to assess regularly the quality of bread we made ; and sometimes our mentors visited our workplace and assess our bread and graded our skills if we have improved after the years we passed our apprenticeships .For every bread there is a criteria for quality such as in terms of external and internal appearance, bloom, crust quality, flavor and taste, keeping quality, etc to me modern French bread does not fit that category but is as good as garbage. People of my generation would not eat that kind of bread . To prevent further argument with the old man ( he is nearly 80 years old) I just smiled and keep silent in order to maintain our good relationship... Until he passed a few years later he never retracted his opinion that modern bread is not good for eating....as it lacks substance...and taste that he is used to.
Some years after.. When I browsed Raymond Calvels book , and found related ideas I started to believe that the old French baker has a valid reason for his statement....which is true if you have to look at the historical side of French Breadmaking....and compare it to recent years...from the artisanal point of view.
We're talking about the same things, just with different vocabularies. I use the word "fermentation" for each development stage. So by my way of describing it, it ferments in the bowl after mixing (1 1/2 hours). It ferments more after being punched down and kneaded again (2 hours). It ferments yet more when the shaped loaves rise (2 hours). It gets a very good oven-shoot after all that time and with all that manipulation.
Put it this way. From the time I mix the dough until I put it into an oven is 5 1/2 to 6 hours. I decide by eye when to bake it.
I tried some today where I made the dough yesterday afternoon and left it in the refrigerator overnight. This afternoon, I punched it down and kneaded it more. Left it out of the cooler to rise again. Shaped it into four loaves and let it rise on canvas, covered, for two and a half hours. Baked it. It was a bit better in flavor, texture and crumb than doing it the other way. But I don't think I'd do it this way normally. Better, yes. Enough better to take the time and cooler space, not for everyday.
I got the same thing when I wandered around the French and Italian countrysides. I stayed in little hotels and pensions away from the city people and city things. I liked the bread when it was about 5 hours old. Less than that and it wasn't "mature." More than that and it was starting to stale.
In some ways, I agree with him. A lot of the old skills and ways have been lost or compromised. I think that the "Slow Food" people see things in that way and are trying to preserve the better ones. I've had breads made with starters as old as the bakers, that were cold-fermented for a day and a half. Wonderful. But I don't want to do that, so I have to settle for a compromise in some areas.
And, I don't really want to be in a kitchen without mixers. I'd like to keep my dough sheeter, too, for the things it's good for (like 50 gingerbread houses each Christmas when I had the restaurants and shops). I've baked in wood-burning ovens, and I like the control of modern ovens better. But each remove from the old ways makes the product change. Some modern changes I think are better.
I don't really like breads with very dark crusts and scorch marks. My grandparents did. The northern Italians made a thing from their villages halfway between a pizza and a pissaladiere, and they said it was ready when it had black patches on the bottom. My grandfather said it had a smoky (sfumato) flavor. I say it tastes like burned toast with onions on it.
Well I will not do that regularly either...If I want a better flavor for my French bread if I had some leftover French bread dough from the previous batch I keep it under refrigeration or cold room and add 25% of the new batch dough weight the next day.. It improves the bread flavor significantly as well as the baking performance from dough's made with normally 2 -3 hours bakers or bulk fermentation. That is the practical way in doing it in large scale.
Yes.....the common french bread is good not later than 4-6 hours after baking, after that its only useful for croutons.... But these country style French bread has indeed better taste when eaten later.. or cool... When eaten warm or freshly baked it does not taste good nor you can appreciate its quality.
These so called long fermented dough are impractical when producing bread for high volume situations.Unless if that is the specialty of the particular bakery its not cost effective doing it . It justifies that its sold at higher price if compared to common bread in many shops.
If I am in the commercial situation I expect that the particular kitchen of baker y where I will be working should be well equipped . I don't want my people rolling croissant and Danish pastry dough with rolling pins. A dough brake/ sheeter is essential . But it does not mean that I cannot do those by manual means .
If I am baking industrial bread I will use the commercial oven, fired by gas or electicity,( tunnel, rack, deck etc , but if I am doing artisanal items I prefer the wood fired ovens...nothing can compare the taste of bread baked that way. I can sense the heat of the wood fired ovens by looking how the coals look , and smoke rise in the oven ceiling as well as by exposing my palms to the oven ambient.and can competently judge if the temperature and degree of bake without using a timer or thermometer.
You're damn right...as people become older their taste buds became weaker and demands more flavorful foods... a smoky flavor add some sort of nuance to the taste improved the acceptability of a baked product.
I think that is one reason why many people like to eat bread baked in wood fired oven than from items baked with other fuel...
The rating for better bread flavor in my experience seems to be this way Wood fired is better than gas,... gas is better than electricity...
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