Lampworking - need torch advice.

First off, take a class if you haven't done so. Find a reputable teacher and go for it. Some things are easier learned by being shown how than through a book. If you get a good teacher, you will avoid forming bad habits at the outset that you will have to unlearn later. Where are you located? Someone here can give recommendations for a teacher I'm sure.

Torches: Hotheads are loud. The flame is cool and slow to work with, it is bushy (it doesn't have clearly defined edges to work with), and you can't adjust it to do fine work. Unless you get a large refillable container, the 1 lb MAPP gas bottles need to be changed every 30 minutes or so to get the most use out of them and then you have to throw these metal containers in the already overtaxed landfills. If you make beads 10 hours a week, in less than 1 year you will spend more money to operate one that it would to buy and operate a minor burner.

Minor burners are quiet. Not only can you adjust the flame size on a minor, but you can adjust its composition (oxygen/gas ratio). The flame is adequate for doing work with borosilicate. One tank of propane (the kind you use on a gas grill) should last 6 months to a year and it can be refilled for about what two bottles of MAPP gas cost. Minor burners are the workhorses of the beadmaking world. The original outlay is a bit more, but not prohibitive. Plus if you decide to get rid of it, it would be easier to sell. Check Ebay and such. You often find used Hotheads, but rarely do you find used Minors. There is a reason for this. You can never go wrong buying good tools. There are other good torches out there, but I can't think of one that offers a better usability/price ratio.

Favorite books: Making Glass Beads by Cindy Jenkins (ironically she either owns the Hothead or is highly involved with that company) - excellent beginners books. Lotsa pretty pictures. Also it has a sequence of techniques that could be used as a primer.

More Than You Ever Wanted to Know About Glass Beadmaking by Jim Kervin - excellent reference book for techniques. Has a good section on setting up a studio. Many techniques explored in detail. Take the title seriously. It is a reference book you will use for years.

Contemporary Lampworking by Bandau Durham - this is mostly oriented towards borosilicate work, but has a great section on setting up a studio and has some parts on soft glass (like Moretti) and beadmaking

After you have been making beads a while, check out Jim Kervin's series of small book profiling individual beadmakers and their techniques. Last I heard there were four: Leah Fairbanks, Kim Fowle, Sharon Peters and Jim Smiricich.

In lieu of a teacher, there are a number of videos out there. Lewis Wilson has made the most. Kim Fowle has one or two. There are some others. They are all equally boring but informative.

Websites and such: International Society of Glass Beadmakers has a site with a forum and such

Wet Canvas is a place for glass auctions

rec.crafts.glass - this newsgroups is more oriented toward glassblowing, fusing and stained glass. But more & more lampworkers are starting to hang out there

Suppliers: C&R Loo - usually the best prices and overall selection of glass

Frantz Glass - has greatest selection of Moretti colors, often they will get colors in before anyone else does, and good prices. They are trying to stay up on all the latest tools and such.

Arrow Springs Glass - Good prices and selection. An ever expanding catalog

Glasscrafter, Inc. (there is another company called Glasscrafters out of FL that is more oriented toward stained glass) - they have higher prices, but often have tools that are hard to find elsewhere

Wale Apparatus - their prices are often a bit high also, but they too have unusual tools

Sundance - I really like their kilns. Inexpensive, reliable, and easy to service if something does go wrong. Good selection of glass and tools. I have always received good service from them and I have never heard a bad report on them from anyone I knew personally, but there are those on the newsgroups who say they have had problems.

-- There are no mistakes, only unexplored techniques

What fantastic info! You should be a link on Dr. Sooz's list!

Live and be well

Wow...Louis, all excellent advice.

The Use of Foul Language in Written Communication: The Tiny Rumblings of the Ineffectual and Stunted Thinker. The Inability to Think Beyond The Obivious and The Crude. ~~~Henry A. Byrne

Okay, is it possible to both agree and disagree at the same time?

First, I'll say that I agree with pretty much everything Louis said, spot on. But even so, I think you might still want to consider the hothead for starters. Basically because the initial investment is cheaper, and so, if you decide not to pursue the hobby, or only to pursue it on a limited basis, you don't have a big investment in. (Hothead ~$80 rather than Minor Burner at ~$170, no hoses ~$30, flashback arrestors ~$40, regulators ~$140, etc.) Also, many people are intimidated by setting up the propane-oxygen setup, starting off with a hothead is lots more straightforward.

In BethF's case (Sorry, BethF, but you didn't give us any other name to use!), I think she said she said boyfriend's father is a welder, so maybe she'll have access to much of the "plumbing" for free, as well as help setting up, so those last two arguments would be less important.

And, particularly since BethF did mention the thought of "walking before you run" --- the hothead option is certainly a reasonable way of doing that. It's not the ideal torch, but you can have plenty of fun and get quite a way into the hobby with it.

But like I started out saying, Louis was spot on in his comments. My personal situation is that I started out on a hothead at the beginning of the year, and just moved to a propane-oxygen system. Fuel cost and ease, and flame control were my main goals, and the noise reduction was a fantastic surprise! I usually wore earplugs when working with the hothead, don't need 'em with the propane-oxygen setup.

If you either now or later end up on propane+oxygen, you might also consider an oxygen concentrator unit. (Again, depends on how easily and cheaply you can get oxygen.)

Good luck with whatever you choose, keep us updated on your choice!

--Dave Brock

However....A used minor and hookups will sell for nearly the amount purchased. And, as Louis said, used hot heads don't get much on the dollar..... I have nothing against the Hot Head....but starting on a minor gives a beginner a more pure and better experience and an opportunity to recoup a good portion of the amount spent.

The Use of Foul Language in Written Communication: The Tiny Rumblings of the Ineffectual and Stunted Thinker. The Inability to Think Beyond The Obivious and The Crude. ~~~Henry A. Byrne

Lois, thank your for taking the time to write such a detailed answer for me - its greatly appreciated!!

i know there is a strong lampworking community in anchorage (my location) and i bet you someone must be giving classes!

my tendency is always to buy the better tool, and now you have given me the excuse - especially with my easy access to an o2 tank, i have no excuse not to get the minor!

Thank you so much!!

Ordering books as i type.

At the risk of sounding like the recurring voice of cheapness and shoddyness (!), I'll pipe up once more. In particular, since others considering starting in lampworking (but not in BethF's specific situation) may also read these responses in order to guide them.

So, while I do agree with the "buy the best tool you can afford" tenet, I think that there should be some consideration of "good enough tool for the user". In other words, when I started playing tennis, I bought a fairly cheap racket that was fine for a beginner. Then, later, when I decided that I really liked the sport and wanted to continue in it more seriously, and was getting good enough to notice the difference, then I put out the money for better equipment.

Is a hothead the best torch for an experienced user? No. Is a hothead an

*adequate* torch to start off with? I believe yes. (In fact, there have been some posters who mentioned the slowness of the hothead flame as being a benefit to learners.)

My main point is that if someone wants to get started in lampworking, but isn't ready/able to put out the cost of the whole oxy+propane system, they should not feel that the hothead option is a bad or unsuitable option.

--Dave

I used and anjoyed my Hot Head for a LOOOONG, LOOOONG time before I was able to afford to upgrade. If there had been ANY way I could afford it, I would have gotten a Minor, but I couldn't, and in the end I was only out $40. All my glass, all my tools, all my accessories, I use with my new torch. To think about it another way, say you want to play with glass but you can't afford a Minor for a few months. You get to have the Hot Head NOW and play with glass NOW, and then in four months get a Minor... you just paid $10 a month to get to play with glass when otherwise you would have had zip. That's a pretty good deal.

Hot Heads have their place.

Of course, they do.

The Use of Foul Language in Written Communication: The Tiny Rumblings of the Ineffectual and Stunted Thinker. The Inability to Think Beyond The Obivious and The Crude. ~~~Henry A. Byrne

I don't think the tennis racquet analogy is really a good one. When you are a beginner, a racquet is pretty much a racquet. You buy the better racquet when you have an idea as to what type of material you want, weight, head size and so forth. With torches, there isn't that kind of choice. Yes, there are lots of torches out there (for example I have a Carlisle CC that I use about once a year). But for most people it comes down to Hot Head or Minor. Let's take the four month example someone brought up. In four months, assuming a person makes beads 10 hours a week, they are using 3-4 canisters of MAPP gas (yes, there are refillable tanks, but that's not going to be for beginners trying to do it on the cheap). At $7 per tank (and they cost right at $8 around here), that is $21 - $28 per week. That's $336 - $448 for the for months, plus the $40 for the torch. So we are looking at nearly $400 - $500 for this trial period. For that money, you can buy a minor with hoses and regulators, etc. Remember either way, you are only looking at the difference in the cost of the torch setup itself, since a Hot Head kit and a Minor kit will both contain glasses, mandrels, etc. The original poster said she had access to oxygen, so that isn't an issue. The only thing left would be a tank of propane. If she doesn't have one and is unwilling to steal the one from the neighbor's grill, she can get a full one for around $40. Even in the case of someone without access to oxygen, you can rent a tank fairly cheaply. ( I talked to a guy this week who got one for $150 deposit and they charge him $7/wk rent, plus $25 per refill. I got my tank for $180 for a ten year lease and I pay about $30 per refill for the largest tank they had. I understand you can get concentrators for about $200 - $300 and never worry about O2 again). So, for 4 months cost of using a Hot Head, she could have a Minor with all the trimmings. And she can keep all those non-refillable canisters out of the landfill. And if she doesn't like making beads she can sell the Minor setup very easily, for nearly what she paid for it I have students always looking for used Minors. Anyway you look at it, a Hot Head is false economy. The difference in cost between that and a Minor is really very small and disappears entirely when you put it into use. As for the argument about some beginners liking a Hot Head because it is slow, I have seen more people give up on lampworking with Hot Heads because they are so slow and impossible to control. Just a personal observation.

Okay, one last "rebuttal" and I'll leave it alone. (And, by the way, I'm real glad that this has remained a discussion and not a flame war (no pun intended)).

I again have only minor issues with Louis' numbers, but it is more the perception and other details that I am bringing up: in other words, looking at it like a beginner: "I seem to like this hobby, but who knows where I'll go with it, who knows what will come up, and who knows how many other hobbies I might start thinking about..."

If, after taking my initial class, I was faced with the entire investment in a propane+oxygen torch, and all the extras, I probably would have said: well, that was a fun class, maybe I'll take this up again when I retire, too much investment and too much hassle to buy and setup. Instead, I made the smaller cashflow jump, got the hothead, made beads that evening, quickly got hooked, and yes, did end up following the same math you did, and now, six months later, have a minor and an oxygen concentrator. So yes, it was in one way false economy, but on the other hand, it was the only way I would've gotten started --- wouldn't make the cash and time investment required for propane+oxygen when I had just tried out the craft.

Another helpful thing was that I could start learning about the craft, suppliers, etc., before making other investments that could be "wasteful". For example, I live in a rural area, so oxygen by the tank is expensive, and more importantly, a huge hassle. That's why I got a concentrator. But had I gone straight into the oxy+propane setup, I probably would've gotten the tank and regulator.

In other words, I don't think I'd call it false economy, or at least I'd call it a balance between economy and cashflow/timing and setup/hassle/intimidation.

As for being able to get back your investment on the more advanced stuff: yes, if you know what you're doing. But if you know what you're doing, you're not needing to get your money back. As a beginner, I still wouldn't take such a plunge unless maybe the store guaranteed to give me back 80-90% if I didn't take it up. Hey, retailers, that might be a reasonable thing to pitch to your customers, along with the numbers that Louis gave here!

So, while my tennis racquet analogy may have its shortcomings, at its core is still the point that beginners are often reticent or unable to make a larger investment up front, regardless of the long-term economies, and we don't want to scare those people off (I would have been one of them!).

I'm happy to "agree to disagree" on this one, especially since we actually do agree on most of the points, just not on the final conclusion.

(Signing off on this topic!)

--Dave

Yes. And if, after trying the less expensive equipment you had found out that you simply don't sem to have a hand for doing better than beginners work (maybe forever), you're not out too much. Not all locations have studios you can use to find out if this is something that you can get satisfying results from.

Tina