Wood’s Lack of Stability Raising Hell? Help!

Wood?s Lack of Stability Raising Hell? Help!

Short Version

I?ve turned a lidded box that HAD a very tight lid to base fit when it first came off the lathe - finished (wax). An hour later, the tight fit had become a loose fit. Piece is from a 10? diameter heartwood cherry blank that is at least 7 years old that I know of - probably more like 8 or 9 years old. The piece was turned within a day of bandsawing three 3

1/2? square blanks from the original blank, the latter containing no pith. The walls of the lidded vessel lid are a little over 1/16th inch at the lip and a tad over for the sides of the lid, maybe 1/8th at the top of the lid. The bottom was maybe twice those thicknesses.. The shape is a squat cylinder with almost hemispeherical top and bottom.

Question: Why did the fit of the lid go from very snug to loose in a few hours?

Long Version

I think it was Dan Bollinger who mentioned the Super Egg in a thread on creativity. It?s a 3-D shape that?s very tipsy but will always return to upright. Take and two eggs, cut each in half and join the two bottom halves and you have an approximation of a Super Egg. Since I was playing with the idea of tipsy turned lidded boxes I had a go at making a turned Super Egg lidded box.

A friend had given me two cherry roughly sawn to round blanks, each about 10? in diameter and about a foot tall. He?d had them for four or five years and they?ve sat under my assembly bench for another three or four years. Both are all heart wood with the grain running vertically. From looking at the end grain, it appears as though the pith was three or four inches away from the nearest edge of each blank.

Though the ends had been sealed, there was some cracking in both blanks, With some careful bandsawing I was able to get three 3 1/2? square by10? long blanks out of one, though two of the three did require some CN glue to stabilize some small checks.

I used the best blank to turn my version of a Super Egg box. I roughed the blank to round and cut in a lip for the lid to fit onto, then shaped the ends to their close to final curves, leaving a spigot on each end for chucking later.

Chucked up the lid and hollowed it, being carefull to maintain a very tight fit with the lip on the base. This would make finishing the top of the lid easire later by using the base as a jam chuck. If necessary later, I could lightly sand either the lip or the inside of the lid to fine tune the fit.

Once both parts had been hollowed and the insides finished, I finished off the top of the lid. It took a bit of care end force to get the lid off the base, the fit being pretty tight. I set the finished lid aside while I hollowed and finished the bottom part of the box. I then set both parts aside while I turned a finial for the piece. Only when I put all three parts together did I realize that the lid fit was now quite loose. If I held the box by the finial, the bottom would fall off.

What happened? The wood was pretty dry, the walls fairly thin, the grain running basically parallel to the sides of the box and the humidity in the shop hadn?t changed much over the last week. I could understand this happening if I?d started with green wood, or mixed sapwood and heartwood, or had the grain been oriented ?acrossed? the piece. This thing shouldn?t change shape as much as it has, as quickly as it did - but it did. If this is inherent to woods like cherry, as opposed to denser woods like ebony or rosewood, I?ll quit trying for tight fitting lids.

Help!

charlie b

Reply to
charlieb
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Cherry has a roughly 2:1 differential shrink ratio between quarter and face orientations. You're going to get ovals, modified by secondary grain directional changes when the wood picks up or loses moisture.

Unless your piece had been in a humidity-controlled storage environment for many months it's odds on the interior was wetter than the exterior, or the EMC that equates to the relative humidity in the shop now. I say wetter, because things shrunk. It could also have been drier, as will be the case in a couple of months when the outside of my thick stock will pick up the moisture, while the winter-dry interior waits to catch up.

Wait until summer, and the lid'll probably fit fine. "Pop" fitting lids are pretty much a one-time shot anyway.

Reply to
George

Hello Charlie,

Wood is strange stuff. In his book, Richard Raffan says that when turning boxes, even with dry wood, he recommends that you rough turn the box and set it aside for a day or two before final fitting the lid to the bottom. Even dry wood will change when you turn away a part of the wood.

Recently, I took a rough turned bowl from our storage room. It had been rough turned in 2002, almost five years ago. It had to be dry. I turned the outside and the inside and then drilled the rim in 24 places to insert different colored pieces of wood. I glued in the short dowels and left it overnight, mounted on the lathe, for the glue to dry before turning off the dowels. The next day, I found the bowl was no longer round. Fortunately, there was still enough wall thickness to turn it round both inside and outside. Apparently, the change in temperature from the unheated storage shed to our heated shop was enough to change the moisture content of the wood and cause it to change shape.

In your case, you were turned too thin to do a second turning. Every since I read Richard's book on turning boxes, I've tried to rough turn and allow them to set for at least a few hours before final fitting of the lid.

Fred Holder

Reply to
Fred Holder

Hello Charlie,

Fred Holder is spot on here with his post... No matter how long the wood has been drying, or what storage environment (controlled, not controlled etc) it has been stored in, you should always wait a bit after your primary final turning, before you finish turn the box and do your final fitting of the lid. I typically wait 2 - 4 hours in a rush, but prefer an overnight relaxation period.

Remember, the hollowing process removes some of the wood that previously provided structure to the blank of wood. This removal will cause some movement as the wood readjusts to the new shape. Pop-fit lids exacerbate the problem further by requiring a very good, snug fitting lid. This leaves little or no room for even a tiny amount of subsequent movement.

In the future, rough turn your boxes and let them dry in the roughed out shape, butting the tennon ends together on the top and bottom. After the roughout has reached EMC, then do your primary finish turning, but allow at least a 2 - 4 hours resting period (overnight is better) before final close fitting of the lid. All of the boxes I turn are turned from dried roughouts that have been roughed out anywhere from 2 to 5+ years earlier. It works for me. Good luck to you and best wishes in all of your woodturning endeavours!

Reply to
Steve Russell

Thank you George, Fred and Steve - I think. I say "I think" because the info provided just blew the major reason I enjoy turning so much

- no waiting, instant gratification, or disappointment. Turn spigots, chuck it up and have something in under two hours - including finishing. Now it seems it needs to be

- start with a piece of dry wood\

- cut a blank

- wait a day

- turn it roughly to shape

- wait four hours - or overnite

- turn the fit really tight

- wait four hours - or overnite

- tune the fit to pretty snug

- wait four hours - or overnite : : :

Sounds like the schedule for a boiled linseed oil finish slop it on wait an hour wipe it off wait 8 hours wipe it off wait a day wipe it off wait a week wipe it off wait a month wipe it off wait a year wipe it off repeat 'til either you die or the universe ends.

At least with furniture making you can accomodate wood movement with your joinery and construction methods. With turned boxes, short of using "O" rings, a snug fit is merely a transient thing - now you've got it - now you don't.

But turning is still fun to do.

charlie b

Reply to
charlieb

I've got a spalted maple box I turned a long time ago - during my spray can phase, if the shape is any indication. It still gives a nice 'pop' when you take the top off - and the figure match between the top and bottom is just astonishing. Turned and finished in a few hours. If I knew how I accomplished this, I'd tell you. If you figure it out what I did, please let me know.

Reply to
Lobby Dosser

Cut to the chase.

Boxes are one thing I will microwave. Not green, but "dry" stuff. Over dry doesn't hurt them too much , though you can find yourself lapping the top in with pumice next day if conditions are humid.

Be easy with the energy.

Reply to
George

Hard to tell, but I can tell you that it isn't a problem with cherry per se. I've got a little hollow form that is a couple of years old that is cherry with a mesquite finial, and the fit is as tight as it was the day it came off the lathe. That was turned out of a green storm-damaged cherry tree to about 1/8" thick, and because of the location of the damage and the small diameter of the trunk, the pith runs cross-ways through the center of the form. (Oddly enough, and though I haven't worked with much cherry, the pith doesn't seem to affect it much)

One thing that I might suggest- and you may not like- is using a modern finish on stuff that you want to keep stable. I know a lot of guys really like to apply a coat of oil and wax to everything, and there's nothing really wrong with that- but I also know that when I've tried that, it leads to signifigantly more cracking and distortion than using something like spar urethane or deft. And, in my opinion, spar urethane from a spray can is a beautiful thing ( ...waiting for the muted gagging sounds from the peanut gallery to fade away... ) Not only does it set quickly, but it's amazing how well it levels itself out. I still do a quick scuff before the final coat, but it hardly ever seems to really need it. The stuff is a real godsend to a guy like me, who can fabricate most anything, but can't seem to wipe on a stain without destroying a project!

The other thing I've done, which seems to work pretty well, is to completely immerse smaller pieces in oil and let them soak after the final sanding for a couple of days. It wastes a little oil, but once it's really soaked in, it seems to stabilize things pretty well. The one that stands out in my mind is the shifter knob I turned out of the same peice of cherry I used for the hollow form mentioned above- I soaked it in tung oil for a couple of days, and then finished it off with a spar varnish after it was dried. It has not warped or cracked after a couple of years alternately baking and freezing in the car, and the pith runs right through the center. Every so often I take it off to show someone who is interested in turning, and the threads (which are cut into the pith) are still crisp. To soak it, I filled a sandwich bag with some oil, plunked in the knob, pressed the air out of it, and closed the zipper- seemed to work well, and required a lot less oil, while not allowing a film to form on the top, as I would expect might happen if you soaked it in a bucket or something.

Reply to
Prometheus

Here's a little something that's outside of the box for you, since I know you appreciate such things.

Why not try turning the lip of your box a little taller and thinner, with a diameter that is just a little bit too small for the top to fit into, and then cut some saw kerfs in that lip to allow the wood to spring out a little when you press the lid into it? I know we don't want cracks in our turning- but some carefully spaced and sawn kerfs around the edge of a piece could easily be a feature. Wood is springy stuff- might as well make use of that property!

Reply to
Prometheus

If you've got a lemon - make lemonade! Great idea. Will try that on the next Hyper Ellipsoid piece. Thanks.

re: oil soaking to stabilize the wood, Steve Knight, a hand planes maker was soaking his plane bodies in oil. Wasn't getting very good penetration, after days of soaking. I gave him a vacuum pump and he built a vacuum chamber out of ABS pipe and fittings. He got much better oil penetration in an hour or two than he did with days of soaking. I may try that on a future piece as I still have a vac pump and bell jar set up from my lost wax casting jewelry days. Thanks for the suggestion.

charlie b

Reply to
charlieb

Another thing I completely forgot, and I'm not even sure how it slipped my mind.

I just bought some knife scales off e-bay that are cut from some really wild burls- while I haven't recieved them yet, the seller calims that they were treated with an acrylic that soaks into the wood to stabilize them. I don't know how well that works, or if it is something a guy might do at home, but it may be something worth looking into.

Reply to
Prometheus

Prometheus wrote: To soak it, I filled a

Excellent tip! Consider it stolen! ;-) I've been making refrigerator magnets from my pen scraps and dunking them in 50/50 BLO/mineral spirits in a large baby food jar. But the zipper bags might be an even better idea.

Bill

Reply to
Bill in Detroit

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