Re: OT Lest anyone see me as harsh

da*n sooz, i was gonna agree with you, but now i've gotta go out for that candy.... ;)

just kidding.

i only hope i am not one of the ones who upset you... i didnt read her post, i have no idea who she is or what happened... but i know the dilema of which you speak and seen it, frankly, all over the internet.... good people want to be good, and its hard to say, 'look, you're not good, and i dont have to be good to you.' i think your words are true, and you should have the right to say 'i dont like you' if you want. after all, it takes it all types.

i have many times been the person on the side of 'no no lets just be nice to them they need gentle kindness and not harsh words, be gentle be gentle.' i have found myself to be both correct and incorrect in this. i have also been on the side of 'get out of here you are a troll' and been both correct and incorrect. like i said, it takes all types. human interaction is just so f*ing complicated. thats why i rarely leave the house...

ok, drifting. best to you sooz. i support you in your decisions and i support the freedom to criticize. i dont mean that sarcastically at all. god knows we could all use some criticism. and if we were all more honest, maybe we would all be healthier.

i had a very bad night last night, i am in a weird mood, i'm gonna go tell everyone all about it. ;)

alia

"MBryt1" wrote > >And even then, some of us were laying

Nothing to do with you.

Tina

Mary, if you lurked here for any length of time, you would know the answer to your first couple of questions. You just don't know how many times we are all asked where we sell and for how much. I don't think you came here to piss anyone off - I so think you should have read some of the newsgroup before posting. That's common practice all over the internet. If you had done research, wouldn't you have known more about what the materials were that you were using? Seriously, you seemed not to know, so I am sure people assumed, and maybe wrongly, that you had not done any research. Please remember that some people here consider you competition in the beadwork industry. Therefore, it is bad manners really to just some out and ask, before really knowing anyone, where people sell and for how much.

The troll attack thing is completely unrelated to you specifically, so I don't think you need to worry about that. She was generally pointing out an extreme example of weirdness in the way people are treated here. No need to really get into that, unless you really want to know. And it would take days to explain.

Sooz is not the only one with an opinion. She is just very expressive about how she feels. She's strong willed and assertive, and when she sees something she disagrees with, she talks about it. I think the personal blasting went both ways. My opinion. Again. YMMV

-- Kandice Seeber Air & Earth Designs

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 4:19:31 -0400, Kandice Seeber wrote (in message ):

I think that's where I lost my sense of perspective over this thing as well. There is _no_ way to become an overnight success, and precious few ways to become a financial success at all, given the economy and the glut of imports taking the entire low end costume jewelry market with it.

It seems that the original poster went to the craft store, bought a lot of junk, to be blunt, and then got angry when she was told (1) her stuff was of the lowest quality possible, (2) the market is exceedingly hard to beaders and (3) with the quality of her materials, the odds of her making any money at all were miniscule. Like it or not, those are the facts.

All the arguing in the world will not change those facts, the market doesn't want to hear, "Well, I'm not trying to be an artist, like you people" or "Well, this is the stuff my bead store sold me," or "Well, I already sold a piece, so there, you guys are wrong." They want either primo quality for almost nothing, or if forced, primo quality for a reasonable price.

If you are the exception to the rule, good for you. If you can take a few low quality beads and base metal clasps and somehow combine them in such a way that people are beating down your door to give you their money -- that's terrific, and frankly, I'd be amazed. So many of us have the opposite experience.

I only give away my jewelry, to me it's less heartbreaking. I only use the very best of materials, silver, 14K or gold filled clasps, and my designs are my own. A couple of years ago, I made my mother a necklace of faceted rose quartz rondelles, Swarvoski spacers and a fancy 14K clasp for her birthday. Her co-workers all asked her where she got it, and when she said I had made it, asked if I could make similar pieces for them. I told my mom that the materials cost darned close to $100 for that necklace alone, and I'd want $300 to cover my time and materials for that necklace. The interest evaporated (as I expected) and one woman called me to complain that she was expecting a price in the $5 range. Okay, sure. I'll lose $95 plus my time to make some stranger a necklace? I don't think so.

The phrase "starving artist," while a cliche, isn't really that far off the mark. I suspect that all of us have some form of income besides beading, and if the truth be told, even the sellers here probably don't make a real profit over the course of a year. Asking us where and how to sell is just fine. Being angry when you are told the truth and killing the messenger is not fine.

Kathy N-V

Okay, I'm only doing this to get the candy.

1. No one seems to be expecting "saintly". Common courtesy, however, even in the face of bad behavior, is a long way from garment-hem kissing, and in my opinion, wins every time. The stark contrast to the bad behavior leaves the courteous responder smelling like a rose.

1. Cluelessness is a long way from "bad behavior". And gracious condescension is a lot more fun in response to either, not to mention a great opportunity to exercise one's creative skills. "What interesting little lampwork beads! Did you intend for them to be that unusual assymetrical bulbous shape or was it happenstance? The opaque colors certainly catch one's attention." gets exactly the same point across as "Tiny, misshapen muddy beads are GROSS!!!"

2. The quickest way to extinguish behavior is to ignore it. If you don't like someone's initial post, killfile them at once. If the group agrees with you and also doesn't respond, the issue (and, no doubt the poster) dies a quiet death.

1. Responding in a way you know will be perceived as discourteous makes you look grumpy. Notice that I'm not accusing you of being grumpy, just commenting on how you'll be perceived.

2. Anyone who has participated in this newsgroup for more than a week knows that responding sharply to a post, no matter how clueless that post, is guaranteed to result in ten gazillion posts that have NOTHING to do with beads and NOTHING to do with our quite frequently interesting if OT lives and NOTHING to do with community building and always degenerate into personal namecalling and generalized unpleasantness. While the exact way in which someone phrases their comments in these exchanges may be interesting, in the same way a train wreck is interesting, it's still a little sickmaking for those of us without strong stomachs.

On second thought, please buy yourself a box of candy. I'm too fat and sweet already to need it!

Elise

OBR: I made my first beaded cab last night! While perfectionists might find that it leaves a great deal to be desired ("Did you intend for the bale to be off center? And don't worry about the back -- it won't show when you're wearing it.") I'm quite pleased to have learned how to do this.

As much as I would love to try some See's Candy I cannot even try to support the idea that we should exhibit saintly amounts of patience all the time. I get a bit fed up at times with people coming to NGs expecting the answers to be spoon fed to them. ( I havent read the posts that Sooz is referring to and so are not commenting on them specifically) Google is a good reference. Learn to use it Newbies. Spend some time lurking so you get the flavor of the group. Its just good manners. I think of each newsgroup as a party in progress. I never just walk into a party and start talking, I listen first to see what sort of group Im entering. That way I can get a clue as to what might offend a group and steer away. I can see what topics seem to be talked to death and avoid. I can see if there is anything new I can add to a group. It cant be all Take Take Take Diana

--

I don't see you as harsh, Sooz. So no candy for me, because I agree. Though I think that we ARE trained to the hospitality thing, (we female type persons) taught to be "nice" before most all else. For me, the training didn't take all the way because I have this extremely practical streak, and there's a point of diminishing returns. But when I notice that level-marker, I usually just turn my attention elsewhere if I can, I don't usually try to fix it. (meaning I'm not ready to be the world's UberMommy, I guess!! ) Otherwise I'd be correcting people on the freeway and at Walmart's and there's no point in wasting my time and talents that way. Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery

view my auctions at:

smmmoooooooooches!!!!!!!! I LOVE this line of thought!! Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery

view my auctions at:

sweet already to need it!<

Fine, I'll send you a fruit basket instead, because I think that was an excellent response!!!!

-- KarenK Desert Dreamer Designs

Fruit basket, smuit basket -- send beads!!! Your red jasper twist is lonely all by itself ...

Thanks!

Elise

Thanks, Sarajane!

Hee hee,

Too true SJ! Or as my Dad always told me "Don't try to teach a pig to sing, - it wastes your time and it annoys the pig" Don't know where that pearl of wisdom originated from, but oh so true!

Emma ;-)

I usually just turn my attention elsewhere if

shhhhhhhhh.......... Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery

view my auctions at:

I did not see this refered-to thread, so I can't comment on any percieved rudeness---but I do offer this:

I don't excuse or apologise for ANYONE else's words or behavior. I do not speak for anyone else, because I *AM NOT* anyone else. I'm just me, Sarajane. I'm not my mom, my husband, my children, or my congressman. You can like my words and behavior, or not. You can like Sooz's words and behavior, or not. That's OK.

I'm not responsable for anyone else's perceptions. I can barely control what comes out of my mouth (fingers) and once the words are said there's no more control---only potential modifications if someone is not hearing the same sort of thing I am trying to express.

BTW---what's wrong with harshness occassionally? Winter is harsh; without it we'd be knee deep in bugs. Cuddlysoft is not the only acceptable texture. This is, however, said by a woman who is often accused of "harshness", especially when I tell the truth. "There's dogpoop on your shoes" may be awfully rude to say to the Nice Lady, but I'm still gonna say it if you want to come into MY house and there's something on your shoes!!! Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery

view my auctions at:

The world's Ubermoms dont have the word *Welcome* imprinted on their foreheads. So, that means you might just be one. (sorta like Kathy N V) something tells me being a healthy mom takes being a healthy person with healthy boundrys. Diana

I haven't run across the thread either, but sound like ya'll are way nicer to the newbies than they are over on alt.marketing.online.ebay. At least once a day someone show up going "I want to get rich on eBay. Where do you buy your stuff cheap that sells for a lot of money?" They are promptly laughed at and shamed into oblivion. Lot more flame wars and trolls over there too......

That said, I can't disagree with the above or the post at the beginning of the thread. Usenet is not the place to jump in to the deep-end without knowing how to swim. Always lurk for a while so you get to know all the players and what is and is not permissible. Oh, and having thick skin is important also.

I personally didn't "read" her the same way as you. And so what? One leaves, another takes her place. The Internet is full of newbies. You gotta start somewhere. Your second or third post to her was about how underpricing one's jewelry hurts people. C'mon, her stuff was appropriately priced for what it is. You jumped on her. Why not just apologize (without taking it back)?

What does this have to do with anything?

You were testy from the get-go.

Well, if you're in a cranky mood, or you can't help 'em, why not just be quiet and let someone else deal with 'em?

What business is it of yours? "acting badly" is a personal judgement, very different from critiquing somebody's jewelry (and yes, I know you're talking about a different Mary than me.)

Who's we? And besides, you're getting upset because people disagreed with your behavior, yet you felt like it was ok (and still is ok) to go on about someone else's behavior.

Per usual. Or periodically anyway.

Mary T.

Aunt Molly's Bead Street

Thanks Elise,

I now know where he got it from! My dad is SUCH a charlatan. As kid, he would tell me stories about a magic land with marmalade skys and stuff, which I found amazing. Then I finally heard the Beatles song at the age of about 6 or 7 - what a crashdown..;-)

Emma

support Deirdre's assumptions about me. I can admit it if I'm wrong, but I have no way to know if I am or not, really.<

Um, what's Beader's Heaven??? And that's exactly correct, you DON'T know, you don't have access to my or Dierdre or anyone else's emails, so why make that kind of assumption? I won't even begin to try to figure out what "Deirdre's assumptions" are. I tend to think for myself and speak for myself.

to you in my post? Please point it out. <

I must be crazed from the humidity. WHAT is an indicator of WHAT? I wasn't speaking of being mean to me, personally, but I do read many posts when I have time, and your tone has come across as more cranky the longer the thread with/about Mary has gone on.

I should keep my own advice and not type cranky things either, which my first comment to you certainly was. For that I apologize. But darnit Sooz, it gets so frustrating to see topics like this degenerate when someone says something you don't like. It's not a conspiracy, just a matter of some folks seeing the downward spiral starting again.

Newbies show up and ask newbie questions. Hopefully they read along and they assume we might be a valuable resource. (Cuz we are!!!!! Look at your list, for starters.) But the only way to find out is to ask! If it gets tiresome to the not-so-newbies, that's perfectly understandable, but it doesn't mean the newbies are lazy or stupid, just that they're new and still figuring out what to ask.

-- KarenK Desert Dreamer Designs