Terribly OT opinions requested...

"Wanting" children isn't what it's about either. Many people want a child, as if a child were a toy or a posession. And many people are wonderful parents and contributors through their children who never ideate "wanting" children. And also there are other dynamics that have to do with diversity. Having children is more desirable in some cultures than others. And if all parents were of a personality style that "wants" children, we would teach as narrower set of ideals. There would be less tolerance for children and adults hard wired with less common personality styles. And should people only have what they want. There's a lesson that would be learned from that too.

I really think it's more healthy for society, only to strongly push for people who don't want children to not have children.

Tina

I don't think it's bad that it's preferred that children be racial similar to their parents (adoptive); it's certainly most harmonious. And most single parents have a very difficult time raising a child alone. It would be a rare single person that I would think could handle being nurturer and money earner to a baby, or counsellor and money earner to an older child, who would come complete with trauma, for how could they not if they needed to be adopted.

Tina

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 3:30:50 -0400, Christina Peterson wrote (in message ):

Hear, hear! Traditionally, my culture values big families (of fat, blonde, blue eyed chidren, but that's another story). DH's husband feels the same way. If my health and our money were unlimited, we would have had a somewhat larger family. (DH originally wanted six! - egads!)

We are fortunate to come from cultural backgrounds where everyone is up each other's butt and children are raised sort-of communally. DD has an uncle living downstairs, and had both grandparents at arm's reach from her earliest memories. Through phone calls, emails and annual visits, DD's German family is certainly real to her and vice versa. My mother is at least a weekly visitor, and if she should choose to live with us, well the door is always welcome. No child is going to want for attention under these circumstances.

Children are also raised far more strictly than in one or two parent households, since they have to measure up to the standards of many adults, not just two tired parents who are beat to death from working. This came home to me when P/T D needed to be taught to use silverware properly. We eat like normal human beings at a table, with silverware and a napkin, and there's nothing exciting about it. When P/T D came three years ago, she didn't have a clue besides shove that food in the mouth as quickly as possible. Now, there isn't a place I'd feel odd going to with the two kids. They can behave anywhere from MacDonald's to a Palace. (That's how my mom raised us, and it's suited us well)

You may only get those people who "like having babies." I know quite a few of them. They adore the baby until the next one comes along. The older kids are drafted as surrogate parents for the now demoted toddlers. I strongly disagree with this kind of parenting style.

I think that human nature being what it is, there will always be children born to people who just don't have it all together to be parents. What I'd like to see is the extended community infrasctructure in place to pick up the load and give the child everything she needs without implying that the parents are not the best. I think that shame, more than anything, keeps these young, inexperienced parents who are in way over their heads, from seeking help that would make their own and their child's life so much better.

Kathy N-V

I like this post.

"Want" is a funny thing. I am childless by choice, but somewhere in my mid-thirties I became aware of the fact that I am no longer able to conceive. I was newly married then, and though my husband and I had discussed and agreed on the no children thing, it suddenly became an issue for me that I *couldn't* actually have them. I became sad over it.

I think I had always found comfort in believing that I could, if I changed my mind, start a family. That it was a choice. Once that choice was taken from me, there was a part of me which seemed to want what I hadn't wanted before.

I'm okay with it, because my logical reasons for wanting to be childfree are still sound to my mind, and haven't changed. But it was interesting to note that it wasn't all about logic or a need to act on principle according to my beliefs. My take away from that was to learn that deep inside there is still a biological drive or desire, and when that desire is thwarted I guess there is probably going to be an instinctive reaction which might translate into a "want" of sorts.

Is that sufficient reason to have kids? I don't think so. I might have made a great mom, but I surely didn't have the energy or emotional resources during my early years to do the kind of job at parenting that I would have liked to do. Despite my later wants, I think my decision was the right one- for me.

Laura

Yes, it is. I also agree that we could accomplish a lot in our society if we placed a higher priority on making sure kids get the love and nurturing they need.

Kids need caring adults to spend time with them. I don't think it matters so much whether or not those adults are biological parents all the time. Community is a good thing.

Laura

You know what, Kathy, I've been struggling with that very issue with both sides of our family. I did have a baby at 19, and gave him up for adoption, because I just couldn't care for him. I was "young" then, because I never really learned much about sex before that point, and what the consequences could be. I mean, i knew the mechanics, but never really understood the big picture.

So now they think I should "replace" him with another boy. Well...with my infertility problems, and facing a hysterectomy in the very near future (within the next 12 months), that's going to prove impossible, unless I have another miracle like my DD was. I've finally gotten to the point where I'm accepting the way things are. And I've also accepted that if we do decide we want a boy to "carry on the family name" we will be doing that by adoption. But we're going to "get" the kids we want, not the ones our families think we should have.

Having had children, I never faced having the choice taken away from me.

But I have had a similar experience. I spend my young adult years raising children, thinking that my husband would provide (which he did not adequately do), and that I could have a career afterward. I did go back to university, but I got struck down by Depression. And now I seem incapable of ever becoming an adequate money earner. Ironically I married a man who provided reasonably, until he became disabled on the job a few months after we married. He is permanently disabled -- they paid him $30,000.

And now, unless this motor goes somewhere, or I inherit a lot of money, I will always be comparitively moneyless. In our society, not having children is forgiveable. Not earning money is not as forgivable.

And I apologize for bitching, because I'm a lot better off than many.

Tina

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Christina Peterson" :

]And I apologize for bitching, because I'm a lot better off than many.

i didn't think you were, dear! i know i'm better off than many, too. it just "gets to me", too, sometimes, especially when the kids need help.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

This reminded me of what happened when I had a sonogram at the hospital. The room had a curtain, but no door. While everything was totally exposed, this guy walked in. I said, "Uh, excuse me, are you a doctor?" I was afraid that they might have been selling tickets in the lobby. He turned out to be a Radiologist, but it was a little scary. Patti

That's the one for me too.

Tina

The reason I have issues with it is because the children then remain in foster care, which MAY be good if they're lucky, but is more likely to be ever-changing and fail to allow these kids a chance to HAVE PARENTS. I think it's a lot healthier for kids to have a single mom of another race (and come to think of it, *I* had a single mom of another race!) than to be ping-ponged about the foster care system and have NO PARENTS of any race.

As far as it being a rare single parent who can handle doing it... given how many single parents there are doing a fine job, I don't think so. Any single parent who's looking to adopt is going to be financially secure, and if not, the state screens for that anyway.

What's better; a small black child being raised by a single white mom or dad who works and hires a nanny during the day, or a small black child who spends his life bouncing from foster home to foster home, usually not of his race anyway, and some of them abusive?

And which is more likely? Not the better option, at this point in history.

That's another way of wording what I said. If only people who want children have them, then people who don't want them, won't. Eliminating the external pressures to have children would help prevent people from having kids just because they "should".

Since Ophelia is Moxley's first and only, people, upon hearing that we're not going on to try for a "matched set" (and what happens if I have another girl? Do I have to keep going until I have an equal number of each?) have already asked us "But what about carrying on the family name?". It stops them in their tracks when we inform them that the family name is MINE, as Moxley took my name when we married!

My point was there is a large group in the middle who kind of want a child (for both good and bad reasons), and kind of don't (financial , career concerns, etc). Did I want kids? Of course I did, in an abstract way. And maybe I would have chosen to have children later in my life. Instead my children happened to me. Of course, if I'd delayed having children, they might have been teen-ager when Depression struck, and I would have "been there" enough for them.

Perhaps you presuppose that people have more control over there circumstances, than I think they do. (Ie, than has been my experience). Or you trust more that people really know what they want. And maybe it is only I who find a difference between what you say and I say.

We're close to the same page anyway.

Tina

I also have know many women who were codependent: wanted to be the "little woman", wifey and mother. Who adored children. But never grew up until there children did. And meanwhile taught them lesson that were harmful for them to learn. The "Mommy Goddess" thing (because I'm the Mom, in an old testament voice). Father Knows Best, and owns the family.

Wanting doesn't always have anything to do with being qualified.

And sometimes it also is good for us to have something we don't want.

Tina

Hold on. I said it is reason able to prefer that children be racial similar, and to have two parents. Surely you don't think that's an unreasonable preference.

Now let me ask you something. You mention people wanting children (including mixed race) and not being able to get them while children are bounced from foster home to foster home. Is this actually a common scenario? Children (without a behaviour problem that would interfere with placement, or living semi-involved parents, eg, in jail or rehab) are not being allowed to be adopted?

I'm not at all against mixed culture families, but I do think there is a better chance of success without the mix than with it. I'm also not opposed to same sex partners parenting or adopting.

As to single parents, I'm not saying it can't be done well. But one parent would have to do the job normally done by two. Especially for an infant. Caring for an infant is a full time job for one person. It's hard to even find a place that will care for infants, unless you can afford a nurse for

Tina

I'm back in the full time work force and struggling with guilt feelings, especially when my son clings to me all weekend, which he never felt the need to do when I was home all week. It's giving Brook the chance to be the primary child care-giver which he loves. Be that as it may, I still struggle with guilt. Is it part of the job description; woman must feel inadequate and guilty?

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Marisa Cappetta :

]I'm back in the full time work force and struggling with guilt feelings, ]especially when my son clings to me all weekend, which he never felt the ]need to do when I was home all week.

well, i didn't have a lot of choices. i did manage to stay at home with them until they started school. given the option, i would probably have stayed home longer than that. [my oldest was 16 before she ever came home from school and Mom wasn't there.]

but SOMEONE had to keep them fed, housed, and clothed, and there wasn't anyone else.

] Is it part of the job description; woman must feel inadequate ]and guilty?

probably, yes.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)