Terribly OT opinions requested...

So, did the feeling go away over time, or because of the birth of DD?

(I know you said more lower on about why you made the decision you did, but clearly your way of thinking has changed such that you wouldn't write the same things now?)

BTW I am glad you say you can't say "the heck with families".

I really respect that there are various viewpoints in this group -- people's different perspectives give a lot to think about, and there certainly is a range of opinions here which is wider then the range I tend to encounter in daily life. Personally I can't go with the "the more you give the more you'll have to give" idea (I tend to want to operate this way but it doesn't seem to work well "anymore"), and also can't feel right with "to heck with families". I feel that family life is very important and worth giving some consideration to, although "family" can not be the OVERRIDING factor in all decisions in a person's life.

For instance, in the original 3 questions of this thread I would say that

1) I couldn't imagine anyone being in the delivery room other then DH or if for some reason he couldn't be there MAYBE one other carefully chosen substitute. 2) I feel it's SO important especially for grandparents to be in on a new child's life (to the extent that grandparents often fly across the country or even the world to participate in such an event), that I don't think I could ban them from seeing me and a baby at a hospital, although somehow limiting the time they were there so-as not to harm a mother's health is a good idea. 3) A parental suggestion as to what to do about birthcontrol etc after the child's birth could be listened to politely and considered somewhat, but after all other considerations are weighed, the parties involved should make their own decision and I the parents' advise can't weigh more then it's worth. I guess what I'm trying to say is, of course Karlee should make her decision together with her husband on what they each should do. When advise is given by her mother, I would suggest that Karlee should listen to the opinion offered with the same levity and respect that she would probably like back if she offered an opinion on such a matter, EVEN IF she already made up her mind and/or finds her mother's reasons non-applicable. Listening respectfully is part of a good relationship, and people will tend to squabble less and think more before they say something if they feel that what they say is truly listened to. If they don't feel this way, what they say tends to become more and more reactionary and less and less thoughtful.

I further WOULD let the grandmother (well, Karlee's own mother. Her husband's mother has done things which take her beyond "annoying" into "dangerous" and with children involved I would say that that takes her out of this consideration) be involved much more. This IS an important time for her too, and if she was allowed she could be of real help as far as helping in the house, babysitting the older child, etc., she would feel ... well.... like she did what a grandmother is expected to and happily awaits doing. I have heard in one way or other from all 4 of my grandparents that being a parent is hard work, being a grandparent is a joy, and one of the few things of growing older to really look forward too. Denying these experiences or making them into reasons to squabble could end up souring the situation and to some extent life in general for all parties involved. Karlee seems to want independence a lot right now, but she is about to become the mother of two... personally, I would think that now could be used as a good time to learn to have a new adult-to-adult relationship together and a time to bond, rather then yet another time for Karlee to prove independence (something I'm gradually learning about this time of my life and my relationship with my own parents.)

I didn't say any of this earlier because Karlee asked for advise from current mothers :). However, I am only a year younger then Karlee so I guess some of recent life experience isn't entirely dissimilar.

marisa2

By the way, since "bi-racial" children are of mixed background anyhow, what difference does it make if the parents are white? If one of the biological parents was white and they ended up keeping the child, would that have been an assault on the child's heritage??

marisa2

Like you, Marisa, I don't feel a big need for children or grandchildren to be biologically mine. I'm told that's because I've already had my own children. But I don't think that's it.

Similarly, I don't think everyone should be a parent or needs to want to be a parent (eg, my daughter is not very nurturing).

I agree that an orphanage could easily be a better place to grow up, rather than being farmed out for labor to foster families (as happened to my husband) or sent to live with someone who is boarding children for the income it provides -- often families where parents like having people they are in charge of (control issues) or where aldults just hanging out with kids (maturation, and seperate ego developement issues). Some of the foster parents are great, many don't really know what they're getting into, and plenty really are bad.

Here in Alaska we have some adoption policies that are very stringent. But let me explain some of this racial preference thing. The Natives I know who are 50 or more who have education (let's say past grade 6) have been shipped to schools away from their villages, often in Washington, where they were beaten for speaking their own language, not just in class, but just among themselves. It has dramatically weakened their culture, raising children who either are unaducated or speak their own language poorly and can't communicate with their elders. They are also taught that the white way is better and by inference, not to respect their own family and tribal members, which messes up the function of the family. And it teaches them they even they themselves are "less than".

Adoption has to be approved of by the tribal counsel before it can go ahead here.

Tina

Good post.

Tina

grandparents, I

i hveant read the rest of this thread yet, but i will say this much:

1. its your birthing experience, and you should have as much say as you can in how it goes. Period.
2. personal steriliztion is a personal and private choice, and as long as you have thought it out, and decied its best, again your call. Personally i would just have hubby sterilized, because it is more reversable in the event that you do change your mind. (Not 100%, but more than tubal ligation, and less invasive too.) thats jus tmy opinion for me, you do whats best for you!!
3. its your recovery, refer to point 1 :) do what you need to do to be comfy and happy.

God bless your family and impending little one!!

Celeste

like the input of anyone that has been a "new

people that I will allow in the labor and delivery

hospital staff (kept to a minimum....i.e. *no

stopping by to check on me and seeing me laid

mom will be lucky if she gets within 5 miles

people that enjoy watching a baby being born.

feel like having the world look at my private

during the birthing process. This is a personal

people, but it bothers me.

else can wait in the waiting room...I don't want

lost my life during my first experience with

MUCH less than professional...they giggled at

was dilated.) She thinks that everyone that

problem with people seeing my neither regions

nurses are going to be coming and going anyway, you

duration in the hospital, I only want my kids

baby, kidlet the first, and the new daddy. It

to hold Ellie hours after her birth like she

to rest and get acquainted with the baby

if memory serves me correctly). Last time I

make it near impossible to rest. Staff would

I am requesting surgical sterilization after

pregnancy is on me and neither one of us want

barrel of monkeys) Both me and DH love and

increase with each one (according to doc, who btw,

kids in the future, that we will adopt. (I,

in all my glory whilst I feel terribly

my hospital room into a major hub of

pregnancy, labor, and delivery, and two kids, that

from my mom on these topics to last a

Hmmm...okay, but the way you worded your response it sounded (to me) like you were saying tubal ligation would damage her health.

Anyway...I also had difficulty with two pregnancies and when I talked of tubal ligation at age 27 my Dr. thought it was a very good idea. He did ask me to give it a lot of thought, which I did, but it was still a very wise thing to do.

take care, Linda :)

Vancouver Island, bc.ca :) (remove 'nospam' to reply) See samples of my work at:

My second sister, Kani, has vaguely epicantic eyefolds. People would occassionally ask if there was any Oriental blood. She was our exotic sister, who didn't seem to look like anyone else. Yet when she wnet to Europe, it was she more than anyone else who relatives thought looked like "one of us".

Tina

Having non-parents be part of the child-raising process used to be the norm. It is since we have gotten so mobile and "self-sufficient" that we lost the extended family.

I also agree that if more children had been properly parented there would not be such a yearning to fix it -- by trying to do it right as teens and in the twenties.

Tina

I don't have a problem with it... It was a totally reasonable decision. :)

I like your three answers.

Tina

thoughtful.

Adoption agencies used to go to some lengths to match couples with children who were likely to have similar characteristics. (They had descriptions, or pictures, of the birth parents to work with.) I suppose it's possible that some of them still work that way, though one would think it would just be an extra unnecessary burden these days.

Actually, that's enough to tell anyone who knows much about genetics that you are not your parents' biological child. Blue eyes are recessive, which means that you only get them if you get the gene for that color from *both* parents, which means that a blue-eyed person can only pass along the blue-eyed gene. So while it's possible for two brown-eyed parents to have a blue-eyed child, it is

*not* possible for two blue-eyed parents to produce a brown-eyed child.

Celine

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 0:59:53 -0400, Karlee in Kansas wrote (in message ):

It'll happen, and it probably won't be pretty. With us, it involved life threatening illnesses. My mother had a uterine tumor that she refused to have removed (because she works in a medical billing office, and was worried the doctor wouldn't get the damn money in on time while she recovered. - should out to Linda! No job is worth more than your health!) After a while, the tumor was so large she looked as if she were in early pregnancy. That was the time the three of us stepped in and said, "This is ridiculous. You need to have this removed."

The tumor weighted 4.something kilos, was precancerous, and the recovery time was far longer than if she'd had it removed right away. My brother, sister and I all arranged our vacation time to spend two weeks apiece taking care of her after the surgery. She never looked at us quite the same way again.

With my Dad it was several bouts of cancer. My sister handled the transport, insurance and scheduling issues, I was liaison to the doctors, and my brother was less involved (his first child had just been born). Dad's seeing us as competent adults who could get things done made him realize we're all grown up.

Bob's folks never treated me like a baby, although his mother treated him as a child until the day she died. He looked at it as endearing, rather than a giant pain, especially since he'd "yes her to death, then do as he pleased." Bob's Dad has always had respect for his sons as individuals and responsible for their own actions.

It'll come. My folks didn't see me as an adult until I was in my mid thirties. It didn't come with DD's birth, and it only started when they saw us handle serious issues without asking for any parental help. (My parents are quite "comfortable." They often offer money and the like, and I always refuse, because it costs too much. As I always say, it might be crummy, but I worked for every bit of this sh*t, and I'm proud of it, too)

Kathy N-V

She did say when they feel "ready", which usually translates to "want". And around 29 to 30 is when the female's biological clock starts really hammering her about NOW being the time. She may very well find herself wanting a child around the time frame she has chosen. If not, she will also be more mature, and in a better position to handle family. Barbara Dream Master

"We've got two lives, one we're given, the other one we make." Mary Chapin Carpenter

Honey, I am 100% behind you on this one! For all three of my labors I allowed ONLY my husband (and doula, with the last one) to be with me while I was in labor. Your comfort level has a significant impact on how your labor progresses and what the experience is like for you; you absolutely should do what you feel most comfortable with. Labor is not a show for anyone's entertainment, and they can go stuff themselves if they think it is. Tell your mom that the only visitors you want while you're in labor were those present at the conception!

If she won't back down, smile sweetly and say "I understand", then don't call her hen you go into labor. I wish I hadn't called anyone because then they kept calling and leaving put-upon messages about how I needed to call them back and let them know how things were going. After 26 hours of labor, I didn't need to come home to 37 irritating messages demanding to know why I hadn't been calling to update everyone. I also didn't need people tracking me down and calling my hospital room while I was trying to relax through contractions.

You can just call afterwards... if they complain, you can just look at them like they're crazy and say "I was IN LABOR. I was a LITTLE distracted."

And for that matter, you don't have to let ANYONE see or hold the baby until you're darn good and ready. Bottom line, THIS IS NOT ABOUT THEM. It's not about your mother or anyone else besides you, your husband, your son, and your new baby. Feel free to use my line... look 'em straight in the eye and say "Yes, but this isn't about you". People often can't come up with much to say when confronted point blank with the condensed version of their own selfishness.

As far as being sterilized, yes, sure there is a chance you might regret it. But you are an adult, and you have the facilities necessary to make a decision about your own reproduction! I will say that you might reconsider having both of you done, and just have him done; it's a lot safer, and I WOULD NOT want the extra recuperation time alongside recovering from labor and the rigors of trying to care for a newborn and an older child. I researched this myself, and was going to do it, until Moxley and I decided to marry. Now he has chosen to have a vasectomy, and I am not having my tubes tied, because his vasectomy *should* do the trick! (knocking on wood).

My best advice for dealing with your mom; don't tell her anything important, ever. It sounds like she just uses the information to make you miserable.

Good luck,

I feel this way too. Fear of losing children is not a good reason to remain fertile! They cannot be replaced.

Dor some of us, it is a physical and psychological need, like sex and love and companionship.

For others, it is not. In the best world, only people who really truly on a profound gut level *want* children would have them, and no one would be pressured, by society, by family, or by anyone else, into having them.

I just had my THIRD, and you would be amazed by how many people have told me that I "have to" have a fourth to "balance things out".

?????!

This is such a good post, Dierdre.

Ah, but government agencies *do* actively seek to place children in same-race homes, and I believe that this is to the detriment of the children. They also discriminate against single adoptive parents.

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 2:01:01 -0400, Kalera Stratton wrote (in message ):

Amen.

Almost as bad as the people who insisted that DH was disappointed because he doesn't have a son "to carry on the family name."

Give me a break. One day one of the nuns at DD's school cornered me and asked when we were going to give DD a little brother or sister. I smiled sweetly and said, "DD is our little miracle. I'm so glad we have her and I wouldn't presume upon God to give us another."

Never heard another word about it from anyone at that school or church.

Kathy N-V