There is a circle of Hades

1)Aida IS even weave. 2) by saying let's not be even weave snobs, YOU are implying there is something wrong with aida, too. 3) there's nothing wrong with hating aida and saying so. I'm allowed to have an opinion. 4) there IS something wrong with implying that there is a progression and that as you get better, you'll be able to stitch on something other than aida. Maybe, maybe not. I started on linen for my very first piece (Jonalene Gutwein's EGA Drawn Thread CGC) and will stay on linen. I find it easier than, for example, Lugana or Jobelan. 5) for me, it's not about skill, it's about feel. I never met a nice piece of aida. I have met some nasty pieces of linen, and won't use them.

Elizabeth (Cashel snob, actually)

Before I ever tried linen or other evenweave, for my second x stitch project ever, I did a big project with a lot of partial stitches--on Aida. (Medieval girl with skirt full of roses) Around her face and hands, I was stitching backstitch diagonals that required splitting each Aida square into its component threads (corner to just over first thread, over second, over third, etc.).

It was NOT difficult, just time-consuming. It helps if you soften up your Aida so that the starch is not sticking all the fibers together.

Monique in TX

I use them all. In the last few months I have finished 2 pieces on Cashel linen, 2 on Monaco even weave, and one on Aida. The three I have going now are on Jobelan evenweave, cashel linen and a Wichelt 28ct linen.

They all have advantages and disadvantages, and I quite often use whatever is handy in the stash.

Gillian

Me too. And I will readily admit that I often use the Aida that is included in a kit. It all depends what the end result is to be.

I sometimes do a project just because I like the look of it and then stick it in the cupboard until such time as I find a use for it, or sometimes I just give it to our local Hospice Thrift Shop because I don't much like the end result..

Maureen says she struggles to see the holes on 12 count aida so anything smaller is definitely out of the question! Bruce

Dr. Brat wrote:

Oh for heaven's sake Elizabeth, quit being so picky and technical! Anyone who has read this group for any length of time likely knows by now that aida is also an even weave (that poor horse has been beaten to death way too many times -- LOL). Most everyone also likely knows that I was talking about the even weave needlework fabrics that are NOT aida! Go into any LNS and ask for even weave and you will NOT be shown aida. Look at the online LNS and more often than not the fabrics offered are listed as aida and then even weaves -- maybe by specific names, maybe not. When I posted and said "let's not be even weave snobs" I *was* including myself because I sometimes get on my high horse. I meant that

-- IN MY OPINION -- those who posted saying they didn't like aida came across as inferring that there was something wrong with the people who preferred aida. Not one person said it was OK for others to like aida but that their personal preference was for the other even weave fabrics. Personally, I think there IS something wrong if a person only wants to use aida and won't even try any of the other even weaves. If you can't see well enough, that's different but to not want to try something simply because it's different isn't a legit reason in my book! Voicing an opinion is fine, not liking aida is fine, but voicing that opinion (and I am NOT saying you did this) in a manner that is condescending is NOT fine! For a huge chunk of folks out there it IS a skill progression to go from aida to the other even weaves. Those people usually start stitching on some "el cheapo kit" from Michael's and don't even know that there is something more challenging. There are also lots of folks who can't afford to buy even weaves so use aida because it is less costly and more readily available. OH -- if you want to feel some lovely aida, find a piece of quality damask aida. Unfortunately, it's virtually impossible to find this side of the pond. It is soft and shimmery and absolutely exquisite. As for the nasty linen, I'm in line right next to you! There is some very nice linen out there but it's hard to find so I usually stitch on some other sort of even weave. CiaoMeow >^;;^<

PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< (RCTQ Queen of Kitties) Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their whiskers! Visit my Photo albums at

I'm using a 26. Hated the one with the kit

I honestly really like fiddler's cloth - it's a block weave like aida and can be quite soft.

C

Fine, but because you feel this way, you then took it upon yourself to project on the rest of us and take us to task for saying we don't like Aida. Frankly, it pissed me off. I don't really care for being scolded that that's what your post was doing.

Elizabeth

I don't remember where I heard it (Dianne?), but I now like to call aida a block weave. There are others - fiddler's cloth and tula jump to mind. It just makes such sense.

All cheap, cheesy fabrics are a pain to work with and I avoid them 99% of the time.

C

LOL - while in general, I agree, but... Sometimes things can go so fast, and look appropriate on the big stuff like Tula. I like Heatherfield.

But, we actually have some 14 ct Aida that's in the "Country French" line of fabrics from Wichelt, and it's much softer, nicer in hand than the standard, stiff, blocky stuff. They only make it in 14 ct, but it comes in some lovely shades, and if you're an Aida stitcher, I'd suggest giving it a try. Feels nicer in hand, and also, IMHO, looks a bit nicer. This shop shows some swatches:

've heard the block weave term also, which I guess refers to the way inwhich groups of threads are smushed together, or bundled flatly, before theweaving.

Ellice

Umm, to the original question for Bruce's Maureen.

There is some softer aida, but it's 14 ct.

She might like something like 18ct Cork, which is an open weave fabric, or something like 16 ct Heatherfield - which look nice, are soft, and have large holes. You stitch over 1, rather than 2. IIRC, in that sort of type of fabric is also Floba and Davosa. She might consider that.

Other question - has she tried using a magnifier? It's hard to do if you stitch in hand, but we've had success with some folks switching to using a stand and a clip-on magnifier (clipped to stand not around neck). But, to use a standing (with lamp) or attached to piece magnifier it usually means the piece should be in a stand so you don't get seasick from things moving about.

On 4/8/08 2:28 PM, "Dr. Brat" wrote:

Hmmm, while the blocks are woven evenly, honestly, I'm not so sure that the threads which make the blocks are. Whatever the case, in the trade, wholesale and retail, Aida is not included in the category of "Evenweave Fabric." Generally, the cottons, synthetics and blends which are not linen, and are woven evenly are . Such as Lugana, Jobelan, Jubilee, Jazzlyn, etc. So, in the common vernacular, Aida has it's own category.

I agree - there is nothing "wrong" with aida. It is certainly not to the liking of many stitchers, but that's okay. And, as stitchers progress with their stitching skills - which doesn't apply to everyone - many will either want to move on to working on linen or evenweave, or be encouraged by their LNS, friends, us, or the dictates of a project. OTOH, for some folks, working on aida is the only way they can stitch (regardless of magnifiers), and we should be happy for them to be able to continue stitching. When I worked at the framer/LNS, we had a stitcher who I hadn't met personally, but had gorgeous pieces - on aida - being framed. I asked the owner if she'd suggested having her move to evenweave or linen, and the owner's reply was that she just hoped we could still stitch at 80. So, while the background fabric of this gorgeous work didn't look as nice as it would've on another fabric, the point was this woman was still stitching along, and in the past had used linen, but at her age, had to make the swap back or wouldn't be able to still stitch.

Ditto. I really don't like it - did my "first" and only kit piece on it - then was immediately moved to a piece on 28 Jobelan, and one on 32 ct linen (long before finishing the kit). That said - the country french aida is softer and much nicer in hand than the standard - just only comes in 14 ct.

Well, there is a progression for most in terms of their experience and skill, and what they're exposed to. But, that said, many people are perfectly happy stitching on Aida, have no intent or desire to do more complicated stitches that just don't work, or work well, on Aida (piercing blocks -ugh). Heck, that's why many LNS & guild chapters offer classes in stitching on evenweave, or linen, or just called "over 2" . Personally my first embroidery was on linen when I was about 5 or 6 - and continued on any fabric available til I stopped after college til about 14 years ago.

Many people find jobelan or lugana simpler because the holes in proportion are more visible than on linen. And consistent because of the way the threads are spun (or extruded) and then woven.

I tend to be with you - it's about the look and feel. But, there is a skill involved in stitching over 2 - which you might inherently have or not see as a skill. But, IME, for many people it is a skill to acquire, and many are fearful. Maybe it's a phobia. I give a lot of basic lessons in beginning XS, and teach a "beyond beginning" class. That's designed at helping people that are for whatever reasons just nervous or afraid to stitch on linen or evenweave. So, we do a small piece that also has some "interesting" specialty stitches as well as XS. That way we work on technique for over 2, using the hole with the vertical thread to the right on top - going over that - making counting as simple as possible, tension, and the fun of learning a couple of other stitches. It's fun, and good for theirself-confidence. And we play with a few different doodle cloth samples. So many stitchers start out as self-taught, buying a kit in a Michaels or similar craft/hobby shop, and continue that way for a while. Then they're hooked. All the time in the LNS we have customers that have been stitching for some time and never been in a shop before, and become like kids in a candy store, or overwhelmed. And they see stitched pieces that can be much more complicated, or seem so, and want to know if they can do that,or will say "I can't do that because it looks so....." We try to encourage them, and offer to "make a kit" (with a 10% kit discount if you do the chart, fabric and threads) . So, while for you it's not a progression - 'cause you jumped right in to linen - for most people it is. In my mind the progression is just from the block weave of Aida to linen or evenweave - as the intermediary step. For others, they just want to start right on linen. And some will always just stick with the evenweaves

Personally, I don't like the Brussels linen (like CA Wells uses), or the permin linen - which is very easy to see, has big holes, but is not so finely woven and is harsh in hand. The stuff R&R uses for 30 ct - to me is hateful. One of our customers has a bunch of it and is actually returning it so we can sell it off for her - it made her hands bleed!

LOL - I love Cashel. Heck, I've been converted to loving the Stitche & Spice Australian hand-dyed linen - Belfast & Cashel - with a lovely, silky feel - and way, way, too pricey to use all the time. But gorgeous.

Ellice

In the common vernacular, linen has its own category, too, but the linen used for cross stitch is even weave. The common vernacular is not always correct.

Elizabeth

True, with regard to correctness - which then comes into persnicketyness versus accepted practices. Yes, but having linen in it's own category doesn't say it's not an evenweave. You know - one of those set and logic things - and linen may be an evenweave, but all evenweaves are not linen. ;^p (or should it be r,d,& h)

FWIW, not all the linen used for XS is evenweave. I think you probably know, that historically speaking the linen used wasn't necessarily evenweave. When I was working at the shop with the antique needlework boutique, we did a fair amount of conservation work, as well as having some designers in as they were charting reproductions of pieces in the boutique owners collection. Part of evaluating the original pieces was always looking at the details of the original ground fabric, as well as the type of thread used (under magnification). We see 35 X 39, 37 X 32, 29 X 32, etc. Even now, there are some modern weaves sold which are not evenly woven linen.

Ellice

First I want to say: Ooooooo! It's been a long time since we've had the fabric war!!! :):):)

For the newbies out there, we've historically had "wars" > Personally, if

Aida does lend itself more easily to some designs. If I'm working a design that covers *all* of the fabric, I use aida because it's cheaper (unless it has a lot of partial stitches, then I use one of the cheaper evenweaves). I also tend to do the more whimsical designs on aida; on the more formal ones I use linen.

I am *SOOOOOOooooo* glad that I used linen, rather than the called-for aida, when I did the bull elk (see my webshots album:

on linen. It has *thousands* (I'm not kidding!) of quarter stitchesand I really would have gone over the bend had I done it on aida!There are some very nice, soft aidas, Salem cloth being one of them.In fact, the Salem aida version has a *much* nicer feel than the Salemevenweave! I use the Salem aida for the baptismal cloths I make forour church.

Blockweave...I like that term!!!! :)

Joan

Thanks for the information. Maureen's eyesight has deteriorated to the point were 12 count aida is about as small as she can go even with magnifiers. Bruce

You're quite welcome. And of course, kudos to Maureen for continuing on - I can only imagine how frustrating that would become, and you for supporting her craftsmanship!

But, if you get a chance to look on the web at some things like Heatherfield, you might find the holes are actually more visible than on the

12 ct aida. It's hard, I'm sure. I'm lucky to have access in the shop to all kinds of stuff that I might not otherwise know about.

Ellice

Hey, we actually have some pretty nice linen banding in the shop. There's not a ton of it, but if you check out the Zweigart catalog (difficult as that is) there is some. Mostly in natural, ivory or white. Of course, it's a matter of taste, but, we do have some that's got pretty edgine.

So true but, since ellice works in a LNS, I'll go with what she says every time. Unless, of course, Dianne joins in and has other pertinent contradictory info :-). The whole fabric "thing" has to make the newbies go bonkers on occasion! We talk about aida, linen, Cashel, Jobelin, etc. and then we talk about even weaves...... Until you learn just *what* we mean, it has to make a person wonder! I remember the first time I got caught up in the needlework fabric discussion. I had worked only on aida for my cross stitch projects and my first even weave project was on white linen -- cheap linen, too -- and it was white on white #$*()&@#^$. I posted to ask a question and someone mentioned that I should have used one of the other even weave fabrics. HUH??? That poor project sat for about four years while I got experience on other, much nicer even weave fabrics. By that time I was ready to deal with the cheap linen and the different diameter fabric threads and the slubs, etc. Fortunately, it was a Christmas piece I was doing for a friend and she was in not hurry. I have avoided most linen ever since that time unless I can lay hands on the nice stuff with the really even threads and minimal slubs. CiaoMeow >^;;^<

PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< (RCTQ Queen of Kitties) Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their whiskers! Visit my Photo albums at