Being correct is not being persnickety. Beginners as well as advanced stitchers should know the difference if they are going to go beyond their initial understanding.
And it is even weave. Two words. Marketing hype aside. Evenweave is a word coined to mean the even weave fabrics that are not linen. Just because advertisers spell words incorrectly for effect and use buzz words doesn't make it right. It's alright to go along, but I wouldn't call it persnickety to understand the difference. And with your education, you should know better than to be so condescending.
Being correct isn't being persnickety. Insisting that using the common vernacular (not that I am implying anyone did so) is incorrect would be. As we all know, slang terms, and brand names do enter their way into the dictionary. Hence, the common market terminology - as you are well aware - while not grammatically or perhaps etymologically correct - evenweave is not used as a term when merchandising (ordering, buying, selling) Aida or Linen. Though, at times Evenweaves & Linen might be grouped together for stitching instructions.
So, my point, though meant lightly and not as a snipe was that insisting linen or Aida should also be included in references to Evenweaves would be "persnickety" . Grammatical correctness is not a main focus of most marketeers.
Ah, well, first to address the last snipe - I wasn't being condescending at all. Second, if a market has termed a coin to name something, as opposed to an adjective, and that term is in common usage, then I hardly think it is "incorrect" to use that term. Calling a tissue "kleenex" when it's a Puffs doesn't make you not understand the difference between a brand or trade name and a generic, and certainly it is not "correct" - but I hardly think it warrants an assignment of ignorance to the speaker. Or, perhaps you are the rare and conscientious person that never slips into the use of a brand name for a general product. Hmm, I wonder if we were really being correct, would we say "evenly woven fabrics that are not linen" as opposed to "even weave fabrics..." Yes, and all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares, so to speak. If a term has been coined to address something, and one is in the business that uses that term, it would seem reasonable to do so. However, Dianne, please do continue to carry the flag of propriety and correctness for those of us not up to it, regardless of education, or lack thereof.
Just, FYI - Zweugart lists their fabric as "Plainweave" and then each particular count by its proprietary name.
Absolutely. My point exactly. I expect that most of us realize that it is easier to group clearly like things, and while Aida or linen may be elements of the set of evenly woven fabric, they are distinct enough to be easily known and separated into their own subset. OTOH, the other fabrics which fall into that set, are known more by a brand name, and count, with few people really knowing the difference between the cotton blends vs rayon blends vs cottons alone. So, in the organization of merchandising it does seem to make sense to group the others as "Evenweaves" (even if a term made by the suppliers). With the variety of type within that category then noted by name and details.
Where I work (now managing the shop), we group the Aida together, various linens by brand as we stock a lot of the hand-dyes, and people look for them by brand, plus it's easy for us to know which brands have what look, and separated by counts. Then there are bins by count for "standard" linen - 28 or 32 count. Another bin for "other" counts (which includes anything from
16 ct to 40 ct). And for the other "evenweaves" we have Jobelan/Jazzlyn together, and then Lugana in a couple of bins. Anything else - there is a mixed basket for the miscellaneous - stuff we don't carry a lot of, but maybe a special cut/color. And bins of hardanger fabric, yardage of a couple of kinds of crewel twill, and even weaver's cloth for punch needle. That said, when customers come into the shop, many will ask for "evenweave"
- not wanting Aida, not wanting linen - and it is up to us to elicit what they like, and help them to find the best fabric for their project. I'm not about to give a customer a grammar lesson - it's enough suggesting a way to help them with their stitching problems when they have them. IME, most people do really not know the technical difference between any of the many named fabrics. In fact, few realize that these are just the names which the companies have given to a particular weave - as opposed to having to ask for "that cotton -viscose blend in 28 ct from Zweigart." Some know they don't like the feel of Lugana, but not why. It's confusing, and I expect that it's my job, and the LNS owners' job to learn those differences and be able to explain them or at least work from that knowledge in assisting our customers - so that they in turn enjoy their stitching.
Heck, last night at the Tuesday stitch-in, one of our regulars was complaining bitterly about the silk she's using slipping out of her needle all the time, and why is it so icky. So, my boss said "ask Ellice - she might know." Thanks, but I said that particular brand of silk isn't long filament type, and consequently, sometimes is a bit more likely to be fuzzy, shedding. For her problem, eventually we decided she could loop the 2 strands through the needle eye (as with blending filament) but not evenly, just leave a short tail (she's using an overdyed silk). The customer thought I meant the linen wasn't long filament. Huh? Made for interesting confusion - and this is someone that has stitched for many years. You just can't tell what people pay attention to, or what they may have been exposed to. Stitchers active in the guilds may have more exposure to technical details than those not, and people whose only local shop is a Michaels or similar don't get the same resources. And so many of us are self-taught, many just continuing that way - gleaning little nuggets of stitching esoterica along the way as they can - from groups like this, and other sources. I always feel lucky that I'm in an area with a lot of resources, but I recognize we're not all so lucky.
Thanks for the vote! But, I'm not claiming to be the most knowledgeable one around - just get plenty of exposure to what's out there in this little portion of the world. I do agree that it can be very confusing for newer stitchers when hearing different terms for fabric. We easily drop into the lingo - whether it's referring to 28 ct linen as Cashel in general, though that is only a specific brand of 28 ct linen, or just saying "even weave" or Aida, etc. I think the most confusing is the set of names for all the other non-linen even weave, as different sources provide items of similar weave and make, but with different names. It's confusing. And for some explaining why A is easier than B to stitch on - another thing to think about. For me, I think Jobelin is very easy to stitch on, the roundness of the threads, and the relatively large or consistent holes. Similarly, in pointing out that 24 ct congress cloth is easier to stitch on over 1 than 28 ct linen over 2, or 18 ct aida, because the holes are larger relative to the weave of the fabric. I know I wondered plenty when I started stitching, and asked lots of questions. I hate to think how long it was until someone showed me the easy way to actually ply thread.
AHHH but it's that exposure that is the kicker -- an additional benefit to all of us. You work in a B&M LNS so you know what is being sold and what it is being called by the manufacturer. You have direct personal experience helping stitchers to find what they need and, if you can help them to learn something new at the same time, all the better. It's all well and good to know the "proper" terms, etc. for needlework stuff but there just aren't that many folks who really give a rat's patootie. For most people there's aida, linen and evenweave and it doesn't matter to them that the correct word is really two words -- even weave -- or that linen is a fiber that cloth is woven of or that aida is also an even weave fabric. What frosts my cookies is to have people nit pick all the little esoterica of needlework terminology. And it's not the nit picking that is a P.I.T.A., it's the manner -- sort of the "tone" of a post -- in which it is often done. Let's face it, only those of us who are purists or who simply like to learn the "proper" terms (that's where I fit in) are interested in this info. In the midst of composing a post, a person should not have to be worried about making sure they use the precise technical terms for something when it's got a specific name in the common vernacular. When discussing the different needlework fibers, I usually try to use "even weave" but I don't always get it right; I try to mention that aida is also an even weave fabric but I don't always remember. Ah well -- I'll strive for a bit more "purist perfectionism" in another life :-). I'm too busy fighting the pollen in this one to worry any more about it!! CiaoMeow >^;;^<
PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< (RCTQ Queen of Kitties) Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their whiskers! Visit my Photo albums at
For Ellice and Dianne, I do love to learn bits and pieces about anything and everything so please don't ever hesitate to knit pick and/or correct any misinformation about my favorite pasttime.
I'm one of the unlucky ones who have to depend on Michaels (and soon to be opened here, A.C.Moore) for my everyday needs and the net for anything special, and I love these information pieces.
Thanks for taking the time to teach me new and interesting things.
Well, we should be celebrating our agreement ;^) You're so right about the exposure being a worthy thing. Donna & I, others at the shop, our guild chapters - will talk about how very lucky we are with several B&M shops, good ones, within at most an hour. I know that Sue H. has at least 2 within
30 min, and for Donna & I, we have about 4 within 30 min drive (a couple within less). Working in the shops, doing ordering, and the wholesale market access also makes a difference in that we get to see, and comment on products, from just a renaming to a slight change in how something is being made, or even sadly at times not made. The hardest thing for this shop owner, as she is a stitcher & designer, is not treating the shop too much like a hobby, and sorting out to what's good in general, what will work for the customers, and what may not - plus not buying every gorgeous thing that comes along- as well as buying some things that we personally may not like (only with chart designs) versus customers who do. With some of the threads we'll try say a couple of dozen colors, and then decide -hmmm, we like this, lets carry the line, or hmmm, it's not worth it. Right now our controversy is Gloriana silks - we stock the full line of TG SnC & Waterlilies & Belle Soie & Gumnuts "Buds" & Needlepoint Inc with Northern lights & Glissen Gloss Color wash - in overdyed/painted silk. So....we order Gloriana for customers and are growing what we have, but. Oh, did I mention the Dinky Dyes silks as well. Similarly, there are WDW, GAST, Crescent, Threadworx & Carries Creations & Stranded by the Sea, plus some Olde Willow (& needlepaints that no one buys) in overdyed cotton. It's a lot. And there is luscious stuff out there.
IME, some of that also happens in person. We all learn and approach our craft, hobby, etc differently. Some of us just want to "do it" and others want to learn the details - the whys and wherefores. I'm one of those, as are you, and many in this group. But, that's our choice. If it's not your way, then a stitcher should feel just as welcome and not intimidated by just knowing they like the cloth that feels or looks a certain way - regardless of proper term. I know some purists that will whack you up'side the head for referring to spun thread (as in what we buy) as "fibers" rather than thread. As in the term fibers refers to the constituent material versus the finished products which are threads/yarn etc.
I suppose if we want to be *really* correct, we should be calling the fabric "plain, evenly woven" or "plain, unevenly woven", in which case aida would become fabric with an "even, large-block weave" and hardanger fabric (the 22 ct.) would be an "even, small- block weave"!
LOL at just the *thought* of the store employees' faces if I went in asking for those! LOLOLOL!
Isn't that rather like saying people should be dumb and let's keep them that way? It's not persnickity to know the difference. It's called educating oneself. If you don't care, then don't take it in. Others may care a great deal. Rather like roll/whip. Some people roll their eyes, others tackle it for its beauty and rhythm.
Ah, but tone it very hard to get right and quite often people who are joking around are told they are being jerks when they were really just joking around.
Yes, but those of us who like to learn the "proper" terms have as much right to post here and discuss them as anyone else. I love learning the proper names and uses for things and I'm grateful to the people who take the time to make that information available to me.
The point of my last nitpicking wasn't whether you remembered or not. It was that you got all pissy scolding people for not liking aida (or for not expressing that dislike carefully enough) and being even weave snobs and it seemed to be just about the right tone to remind you that aida is even weave. If you missed the humor in that, that's your loss and I hope you enjoy your frosted cookies.
Frankly, I think this has been a fascinating discussion. It looks like a fabric war of yore, but with no real fighting. Just good discussion. And that is the reason I've hung around this group for twelve years.
And I'm the one celebrating that Zyrtec is now sold over the counter in the U.S. I'm down to three or fewer sneezes a day - much better than the twenty plus I was experiencing. And my eyes no longer water all the time so that little salt lick by my left eye is gone. I'm much happier.
Donna who spent as much time frogging this week as stitching which is quite a lot of time
Make that Two. Allegra wasn't working for me any more, Claritin never helped, so I decided to try Zyrtec and it's (mostly) working. We drove past one block that I know bothers me and I was sneezing, but at least I'm not miserable when I'm safely in the house.
Like I said -- it's the manner in which something is said, the actual words and tone of a post that can be irritating. I often argue with someone because their post sounded rude, as if the person is some sort of elitist snob and thinks s/he is better than the other person. So -- enough of that dreck -- we've beaten the poor dead horse senseless yet again :-).
PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< (RCTQ Queen of Kitties) Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their whiskers! Visit my Photo albums at
AHH but I wasn't pissy or scolding, I was simply reminding people that we (and I include myself in that group) might be intimidating the aida folks -- especially the newbies. There have been too many posts from lurkers and newbies who start off apologizing because they only stitch on aida. If those poor folks feel the need to apologize to the group for stitching on aida, then WE need to take a bit more care to make sure we don't come across as elitist snobs -- even if we ARE! When I read you response to my post -- IMNSHO -- you didn't remind me that aida was an even weave you TOLD ME. The word "remind" was not included in anywhere. The words "don't forget" were not included anywhere. As I said, it's the way a post is written than can be offensive, not the info included in the post. And don't give me any crap about getting the tone right. You're an Ivory Tower person (and that is NOT meant to be derogatory) -- an academic -- and I should hope you know how to get it right or you wouldn't have the education you do. Regardless (I think I was in my Sophomore year at University before I *really* learned that there is no such word as irregardless -- LOL) it's ALL persnickety and nit picky. By now the aida folks have likely gone their merry way and forgotten what all the hullabaloo is about :-). Only us persnickety, nit picky elitist snobs are still beating the topic into the ground -- LOLOL! CiaoMeow >^;;^<
PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< (RCTQ Queen of Kitties) Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their whiskers! Visit my Photo albums at
See, you didn't think you were pissy or scolding, but I thought you were both....
I have to say that I don't think I've ever seen a post from someone apologizing for using aida. Maybe it just didn't hit my radar, but I don't remember that kind of apology, so your context was missing for me.
Well, no - it was a bulleted list. I didn't use don't forget, because I was making a statement of a fact that I assumed most people on this list (and certainly YOU) already knew before continuing with the rest of my answer.
Ok. That's offensive to me. I wasn't giving you crap. It is absolutely true that some people don't communicate well by email or usenet. You and I seem to be one of those pairs and there's no crap intended there.
I know exactly how to get it right in certain contexts and with certain people. No one in my field would have assumed that a statment such as saying aida is an even weave was telling them something they didn't know; they would have assumed I was listing a fact that everyone knows as a starting point for my argument.
Getting right some places and some of the time, is, unfortunately, not a guarantee that you'll get it right all the time and everywhere.
Actually I was peeved about the use of the term "persnickity" when it came to someone using a correct term. That's a derogatory remark no matter the context. It's used to dismiss someone. I never said anyone had to learn. But I don't consider sharing the knowledge as "persnickity." Nor should that sharing be dismissed, because in doing so, you are asking people to be dumbed down. They can either care about the subject, or not. It's their private choice. Anyone who is an accomplished needleworker should know the difference and use the correct terms in order to educate others who are less knowledgeable. That doesn't make them elitist. Only the insecure would think so.
I have stitched 3 fairly large piece that are solid stitching (no partials) and used 18 count aida for each. It made a good firm background and was easy to see. Many people like Jobelan - however I find it very hard to see, I think that's because of the sort of shiny finish. My favorites are Jubilee (28) - all cotton, easy to see; Meran (28), not as easy to see, the threads kind of slide together, but a lovely finish; Quaker (28) - cotton and linen, again, I find it very easy to see; Linda which is a lot like Jubilee only 27 count instead of 28.
InspirePoint website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.