OT - to the linguists among us

It is part of the "Politically Correct" era in which no one wants to offend about anything! Gender is a very vanilla word, whereas sex is a loaded gun in some people's minds.

Go figure.

During my early career days, I was the babysitter for a very elderly board of commissioners at their state conventions. At registration where the form asked 'sex' their responses were always entertaining. Some wrote 'please'. 'Hopeful' and 'easy' were also frequent answers. Polly

Now this is just my personal opinion mind you but I would surmise that sex was changed to gender about the time that quilting over took the sewing community that at one time just toiled away to provide clothing for the family and an occasional home dec. project. It was a rather discombobbilating conundrum for all mankind. You see, the normal, long ago, when somebody said or read "sex" the usual response of the masses was "M" or "F", check one. Then as time went on when sex was read or mentioned families were abandoned, children left hungry and unbathed while harried husbands tryed to figure out how to fry tomato soup for dinner, laundry was left piled and unsorted, ironing and mending left unattended, gardens were overgrown, Cub Scouts and Brownies were left without leaders and pets were left staring at unopened cans of food dropped in their dishes. The dust bunnies multiplied in terrifying proportions under beds, birthday presents were unwrapped, school snacks were unbaked, last minute costumes were purchased; horrifyingly the list goes on and on until it dawned on the populous that 'sex' was being confused for S.E.X! Every time 'sex' was even alluded to there were gridlocked traffic jams and unattended domestic responsibilities as thousands upon thousands of quilters, all but vibrating with anticipation and chocolate fumes, would snatch up car keys and purses, leap into the family vehicle and head out with the single mindedness of spawning salmon to find an LQS yet undiscovered......hence the switch to the word "gender".

Val

"DrQuilter" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@mid.individual.net...

I agree with Boca Jan. Sex is still used to refer to male or female, but gender is a 'safe' word.

Hi

Well, I am going to timidly tiptoe into this discussion with the reasons that I see many persons are starting to use the word "gender" rather than "sex". Much have I learned over the past couple of years through new friends, much reading, many discussions, numerous questions, and continued learning and growth. Let's just say that I have a very diverse, different, special, and large group of friends.

We are learning that it is getting harder in some ways to concretely label persons as either male or female. Not the least of which are those persons that consider themselves transgender, whether you understand or agree (accept), is only one area of gender identity. There are also those persons that externally exhibit one gender yet internally exhibit another gender, those persons that may exhibit both genders to some degree, whether externally or internally, and persons that may have various levels of hormones contrary to what may be exhibited externally or internally.

Remember, I have not mentioned even one act of sexually acting out. Only whom persons perceive themselves to be. Two books that are worth reading, The X in Sex: How the X Chromosome Controls Our Lives by David Bainbridge and another book, which I can't find the title at the mement, that is along the same lines. Both books very eye-opening as they gets to talking about XXY and XO pairings that have been discovered in people.

While some people are starting to use "gender" to be more politically correct, others are starting to use "gender" since gender is becoming harder to distinguish in some people. What is hard though is that in using gender, we have not yet developed or created words beyond male and female and in our desire to label persons, we are at a loss for such labels.

I hope this gives some insight and food for thought. I am by no streatch of the imagination an expert. I can only relate my experience and reading.

Steven Alaska

"DrQuilter" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@mid.individual.net... As a non-native speaker, I get confused about some things. I checked wiki, but want to hear your opinions. When did we stop using the word sex to refer to men and women and started using gender? Gender is "an individual's self-conception as being male or female, as distinguished from actual biological sex". I guess most of the time they agree, but is it just that people shy away from using the word sex???

I think it's more too because these days people are 'men in womens bodies" and vice versa. Way back when a persons sex was M or F we didn't have (or more likely openly know about) transgenders, cross dressers and the like. Things were black and white way back then - you was either boy or girl. Nowadays you can be born a boy but live like a woman or be born a girl and live like a boy.

Very confusing times.

I will also softly tiptoe in on this discussion. In my line of work [Superior Court of California] there are instances where I interact with persons whom I cannot immediately identify as fitting into female or male category. When the need arises that I must verbally address them [it's Mr or Ms, never first name], I simply ask their preference and abide by that. It is not my place - whether at work or not -to judge someone, or to assign them to a label they don't prefer.

It seems the gender situation is much overrated, and is used to be able to label someone, or use the box checked to assist meeting some criteria. "Well, we accepted 57 applications from males, and 38 from females." [I recall bucking the trend in an interview for Chevron Oil, to work in the oil refinery, by telling them "Don't keep bringing me in every two months to interview me, when you have no intention of hiring me, just so you can tell EOC you interviewed X number of females." They hired me the next month, then would not admit I ranked the highest in the training class because they didn't want everyone to know a female was in the highest place.]

G> Hi

com

Yes, what Steve said, and very well, too.

It's not about "offending anyone" or being politically correct. It's about recognizing that just like in everything, including race, there are variations that don't lend themselves to black and white answers (pun intended).

Plus, we can be awfully silly when the word "sex" is used in public. Only in America.

Marissa, I'm curious. Are you trying to win a bet or something?

Cindy

~gentley and respectfully snipped~

You've brought forward some interesting points, Steve. As one who lives on the "left coast" and in a large metropolitan area I can certainly see the reasoning in your well thought out explanation. I too have quite a few friends about whom I've been asked, "are they male or female?" My pat answer has now become, "What difference does it make." But that's just me, I really don't care, I see them as just wonderful, intelligent, kind, talented people and my friends so I personally don't need further categorization.

Also, sex has almost become more of a verb now days rather than an identifying noun. Many things have changed. It used to be that when you said "Adult" it meant get a babysitter so grown-ups can have a break from the kids or of legal drinking age. Now "adult" seems more and more synonymous with X thru XXX entertainment or behaviors most would not exhibit in front of mother. Times are always changing and behavior evolves with social mores. While I was working construction "man hole" was changed to "point of utility access" to be more politically correct. (A prime example of let's get a grip folks *sigh*) It was once unacceptable to even refer to anything by an anatomical name; it was a LIMB, not LEG; be it table or human, lest you be thought vulgar, under garments were "unmentionables" and so on......times change, always have and will continue to do so.

I can certainly understand why Marrisa (DrQuilter), or anyone learning English as a second language would have trouble and confusion with all these changes that seem to happen before they are ever, *if ever* documented, and then change again from current documentations of the changes of what becomes common usage. It's admittedly very confusing. You toss societal quirks in with all the exceptions to the rules of grammar and phonetics, add to that regional and ethnic nuances and I'm amazed anyone other than a 'born native' ever learns to understand or speak the language referred to in the USA as "English"!! As I was told by a Brit friend, "You do *not* speak English, you speak American." But then that really isn't correct either since American technically refers to both North and South American continents so now we have MORE confusion.

Val

Howdy!

Okay, then, Val.

My answer: Yvette Mimieux

It's my favorite answer, sounds so much more musical than, "Uh...I dunno'."

R/Sandy --haven't noticed anyone being shy of saying "sex" or asking for it, flaunting it, offering it up, relying on it...

This would be the sort of British person I stay away from. I taught English as a foreign language in Russia and there is no one "right" way to speak English. I have met many (usually English) people who think their version of English is the only right one, the only beautiful one, the only one that poetry and other artistic, verbal means of expressing one's self could be used to convey those ideas. But there is Canadian English, American English, Australian English, South African English... you get the picture. Very soon, the number of people who learn English as a second language will overtake those who speak English as their first language. Look how many people in India alone learn English, and now, in China. So tell your friend he speaks Leicester English or Coventry English or wherever he's from and see how he likes them apples.

-- Jo in Scotland

Next time you are out look at any person on the street. Are they male or female? Are you sure? How do you know? You can state the gender you percieve them to be, but unless they are naked you cannot say for sure what their biological status is. In the circles I travel in I have been in the situation of telling a querant that that "hot babe" is named David, or "Chippendale looking guy" is Linda. With the exception of the mating dance, most of the time whether or not a person is in possesion of a Y chromosome is an irrelevant data point. However some people do set great store by what gender they percieve in others. This is a dangerous thing really, people have died, or lost families or livelihoods on account of it. So a move to seperate perception from biological status in language is a good start towards fixing that.

NightMist

'afafine there are words in some cultures. an interesting read and an eyeopener for sure. jeanne

"steve" wrote...

We had a frequent guest in felony court. He/she (whatever) demanded being called 'Queen Elizabeth'. No problem.We were also expected to list their blood type, another dumb, unfunded impossible law. I asked one of the D.A. assistants how I was supposed to accomplish that. "Hit 'em in the nose" he said. Just nothing like a day in court. Polly

Yes, I have. More than once, but the one that sticks out in my mind: It was pretty interesting that day, as the person is an Apache horse trainer who was being evicted from land that housed their training stable [land had been sold and they were trying to find a new location for the horses]. My bench officer is so in the habit of addressing people by Mr or Ms. And this person used first initial only, to boot.

In fact I have become friends with this trainer since then.

Oh, and I prefer to be called simply by my first name in the courtroom, not "madame clerk" as my commissioner sooo likes to do. The law enforcement officers who come in just call me Annie Oakley, my reputation with firearms precedes me ;)

G> Ginger,