Is this group simply dying

On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 18:15:47 -0500, Fred Holder wrote (in message ):

Others have already addressed this issue, in this thread, so I am simply reiterating, I guess.

ISPs are dropping usenet groups for one reason or another. Many Internet users do not know of the existence of usenet or do not know how to "get on" usenet. Some readers here maybe get what they came for, and then left.

I am a new reader here, as some of you already know. I'll tell you some of what I get from this NG. Sure, I can do a mean Google and come up with hundreds of thousands of hits on a query... and then try to wade through all the dreck before getting to the gold. If I make a query here, I get the good stuff right away, already pre-screened and tested, and no sales pitch to please try their own line of doodad.

I am pursuing a modest line of experiments now, based entirely on information gained here at r.c.w and have cut years, likely, off of the tinkering timeline, and saved considerable scrap in the preocess. I guess I am in the process of learning something about drying/curing of wood, which many of you are already comfy with and have graciously shared your knowledge here.

Be of good cheer. Maybe the traffic here is not as high as it may have seemed at other times, but there is still traffic. Readers are benefiting from your skills and mistakes. Usenet is much easier and simpler to use than most of the WWW forums. So what if there are no pictures here? It is simple enough to provide a link to a site for pictures and movies, and equally simple to follow those links. Also, as others have said, traffic will likely pick up as the winter comes on.

my 2 cents' worth.

tom koehler

Actually, no most of what you have posted is wrong, including how Usenet is propagated and how newsgroups are created (I've lead the effort to create four, and ran the poll, almost 15 years ago that decided not to split rec.woodworking, so yes I do sorta know what I am talking about)

I think it's a combination of things, but I have seen the volume of posing to all usenet groups I read drop over the last couple years. Sigh...

There is a Yahoo group at

The posts do not seem to have any of the unrelated items like this group does. I cannot tell you yet if that group (site not people) it is better than this one or not. It does allow pictures but you need to learn how to navigate to find what you want. The experts who post on this group have been a valuable source of information when I get stuck. I have not read the other group enough yet to have an opinion on the value of its content. Anybody else have any thoughts? Some people have mentioned merging which is why I bring it up. If all of the experts on this group migrated to the Yahoo one it might be more useful than this group (again I mean site not the people here who are great resources).

This is a Yahoo group without the strange posts on topics unrelated to woodturning. I don't know if any of the experts in this group post there. It does allow pictures. Somebody mentioned merging. I would hate to lose all of the expertise found in posts here so I am wondering if migrating is something people should talk about. The question then might be where the promised land really is. Maybe the sexy spam is just something we live with but it makes it harder to separate the signal from the noise. .

I'd like to give an alternative possibility.

I have been regularly monitoring and occasionally posting to this newsgroup for about 7 years. I have learned a lot from all of you during that time. But now I am more confident and fairly competent in my turning than I was 7 years ago. I have a lot less questions and spend more time turning.

I wonder if one of the reasons that their is less activity is because more and more of us turners that lurk in the shadows are better turners than we were and we don't always need as much help. If their is no new blood joining this group that needs help then all we can do is talk to each other. Instead we are busy turning (or doing other somewhat important tasks).

It may be that we need to recruit. I think that this group does much better when their are a lot of questions being asked. If their is no one asking questions then the group slowly dies off or at least it becomes a lot less active.

Just a thought. Ted

Personally, I agree with just about everything posted. There are a bevy or reasons that many forums are slow now, and I think the posts here hit the highlights.

But I think too, there is a trickle down effect from other forums and postings. On one of the other forums I frequent, I find myself going there less and less. The woodworking NG has become a personal blog for many, posting almost daily their political views. The political postings far outweigh anything to do with woodworking, and with so many participating, I feel like the odd man out.

I feel like politics is a normal part of everyday discourse, but those guys are nasty to each other, profane at times, and are small minded enough to think they are complete experts based on what they read in the press. Old friends are now enemies, and posts that should be lively topics such as those concerning woodworking, get weak and uninspired responses. ANY post over there can be turned into a political thread. And it is clear, it is "us against them".

It leaves a bad taste in the mouth, and I think it crosses over to the other venues. That means less participation all around.

That being said, I think even the moderated forums have slowed, as can be see by the traffic at some of the other forums I like. I know Wood Central is noticeably slower, but then again, that has always been a pretty close and closed group. Lumberjocks seems to be doing quite well, but doesn't have anything specific about woodturning, so for the enthusiast, there isn't anything much there to see.

I think another point that was mentioned that is quite applicable to woodturning itself is the lack of interest in getting younger folks involved. I was talking with an AAW demonstrator years ago, and we were talking about the average age of woodturners. He told me that at that time AAW estimated the average age of its members to be 67. That certainly was in line with our club membership.

Now our club is older, and it has been dying for the last 3 - 4 years. I always told them that if they didn't (and I have offered help, demonstrated, etc. as my part of this) try to recruit some younger folks it would die quickly. The older guys don't give a whit about attracting the younger guys, and after turning for a couple of years feel like they have pretty well mastered the turning game.

Even the older guys have lost interest in woodturning as they don't feel challenged, and they don't feel like participating in the President's monthly challenge. We have months that NO ONE, not even our retired president makes the challenge project.

When you come to the meetings now, it is sad. At our zenith we had a great mix of young and old, and even a couple of women. Our monthly meeting was about 50 - 60 people. Now, we are literally at about 10 in attendance if we are lucky.

The wonder of the internet is that you can contact just about anyone, anywhere that wants to be contacted. I have corresponded with others on both coasts and in Canada, and it seems this is a problem all of woodturning is facing. There simply isn't a farming system, a welcome mat, or even a desire to bring young turners into the fold.

I look at club photos, symposium photos, demonstration photos, etc. all the time, and it is difficult to find anyone under the age of 65 in the photo. If there is, it is usually the demonstrator.

I don't know where woodturning is going, but I am thinking that it will be its own undoing as far as enthusiasm goes. 25 year old guys don't want to sit in a room full of 70 year old guys that have absolutely no interest in what they are doing. In our club, an new lathe owner will come to the monthly meeting exactly once. We offer a year's paid membership to anyone that buys a lathe at WC, and younger folks just won't come back.

I know I am almost at the end of my one year commitment to the club president to help get things back on track, and sadly we are failing miserably.

On the bright side of things here though, I think there are too many lurkers and not enough posters. I have noticed that when a sincere question is posted, many jump to answer, and I personally think that is great. I am not sure why some are reluctant to post, but I always encourage anyone to post anything they feel like, questions or answers, of just MUSINGS (come on Arch... where did you go?) for us all.

I hope things pick up around here, but I have a feeling it will take colder weather, the end of the elections (probably add a month or two to that to let the whining die down) and maybe even for the holidays to end. Then it may get back to normal.

Hope so.

Robert

I used to be, Ralph... Just too many sites and not enough time...

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Marty... Power sanding is the way to go for winged bowls, IMO.. I use very thick, very soft interface pads and try to maintain an angle on the disk, so that the edge of the wing never hits the top edge of the sanding disk.. DAMHIKT

wow.. that's too long! try this one: mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

In message , " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com" writes

I must say many newsgroups have charters, and if a person posts in contravention to the charter, you can contact their ISP, and in many cases in the past they would warn/delete the persons account, as often the action is also in breach of the AUP

One problem that society has grow to is that many in the older generation expect respect, and treat youngsters in a condescending manner. Respect is earned, not a right. And both parties, young and old have something to contribute to a hobby, Youngsters can often question practices, which prompt new ideas, the more experienced then develop the idea, and teach the youngsters. Its a team effort, continual learning. I am only 45 , but I have taught skills to others, and take a pride in when they understand, but more than that I also understand that one teaching method is not suited to all, so change my approach until the person I am teaching 'gets it'

On here I do not know the age range. But I do know that I have never seen the condescending behaviour, that often occurs in clubs

I used to belong to a vintage motorcycle club, we started with 30, we packed up when at a meeting we could not produce 1 motorcycle, and the local vintage tractor club out did us with 3 :) Initial enthusiasm is great, but often other commitments have not been factored into the available time.

Sometimes its down to them feeling intimidated by existing member's, and what they create. Maybe is some of these "so-called experts" were to bring along some of their disasters, these new members would realises even the best have problems, but on top of this a failure can be an excellent talking point as to why it happened and how it may have been prevented

Have the members been surveyed? Not as to what they want, but more to what they think new members would like to see? And what they think should be done to keep the club going and possibly increase membership?

I was once the Secretary of a HAM Radio Club, and I tabled a motion at the AGM that required members to become members of the organisation whose premises we used for FREE, and that subsidised alcoholic beverages. The fee was a whole 4GBP ($8) a year ! They voted it down, even though our constitution 'Required' that memberships should be taken up if they were available. As you can imagine, the Chairman, myself and treasure all stood down. Sometimes long-standing members have a disproportionate influence on the rest of the membership

Arch's musings do make you think, and are a treat.

I must admit when I started turning 1 year ago, and joined the forum, I had many questions answered as I filled in the gaps of what I needed to know, but now its a case of putting the time into practice, when I actually achieve something , I will get some images up of what a beginner can do with practice.

For the last 9 months though my time has been spent on accumulation of wood, preparing it for long term drying or for use. Part turning bowls, accumulating tools etc. Squeezing all my tools into the workshop, and getting me in there too

The big question is when does interest become hobby, become obsession, become disease :)

After reading nailshooters well defined comments, I just had to chime in....

I have been reading this group, almost exclusively as a lurker, for 3 years now. I have gone from someone that never had even see a lathe, to someone that is at least comfortable with their current level of expertise, all because of this group. From the comments posted here, to the links to other websites, and to the occasional personal emails (Thanks Darrel), this news group has helped me immensely in creating the addiction of turning.

So, to those of you that may think your comments are falling into cyberspace - rest assured there are likely many like me that "lurk and learn"!

As to the age comments, I suspect thats true, but again, not in all cases -

45 for me, and a happy recent owner of the Delta X5 lathe, replacing a Craftsmen Sears model, replacing a BusyBee model.

For those of you still reading, here is link to my personal website, not meant as a commercial venture, only a place to show the good and the bad over the last 3 years to friends.

Hopefully some other lurkers will come out of the bowl to keep this group alive!

In message , xcaper writes

Some really nice pieces there, though when you click on the image an enlargement would be nice, especially on the Burl :)

" snipped-for-privacy@aol.com" wrote in news:6361fc0f- snipped-for-privacy@e38g2000prn.googlegroups.com:

Hi Robert, I really enjoyed the woodworking group. I learned far more than I contributed. Almost everytime I had an answer or a suggestion, three others had beaten me to it. I didn't want to be the fourth or fifth to give the same response, but it made me feel good that I could have. The political stuff etc. was not something I expected from that newsgroup. I have strong feelings about some of the things mentioned in that group and just couldn't keep my mouth shut (knowing the newsgroup wasn't the forum for that discussion). I got away from wood and made an ass of myself. A gentleman should remain a gentleman regardless of the circumstance. I wasn't. Until I can be, I will not read nor participate in that group. Back to this group. I am mostly a lurker. I have far more questions than answers. It's like when my wife gets us lost because she won't ask directions. I've tried to list my questions, but she just won't ask them. I've learned a lot from this group and hope it continues long enough for me to say "like Robert, Darell, Leo and Mac say, I think".

I'm not seventy, but sixty-seven is close. I'm old enough to realize how much I don't know (being sixty-seven means that I'm the average of woodturners? I hate being average).

Yeah Arch, I miss your musings too.

Don't know about the elections, but cold weather is setting in. We just got eighteen inches of snow between yesterday and this morning. WE were only out of power for twenty-four hours. I live in the Catskillsd of NY. The good news is I have a lot of black birch, hemlock and hard maple to turn. Regards, Hank

snip

there is no reason that 20 and 70 can't mix just fine, what it takes is the "old guys" being interested in the young guys and visa versa - if it is a clique and not a club, then the effect mentioned will happen - if the club makes an effort to welcome a new lathe owner - "hey welcome - how can we help you? - this guy teaches boxes, this guy teaches bowles, we have a sharpening workshop coming up in 2 months, and oh, that thing you showed is really great - how long have you been turning - you are doing great" - good chance you'll see them next meeting.

I agree completely. And this is what we have. The older guys (that have been turning for all of 3-5 years now) think of themselves as the old craftsmen.

The wide eyed 20 somethings go in there and hope for some tips, instruction, and some helpful commentary on their work, and there is little.

Our older fellas can't understand why anyone would want to turn much more than a bowl, cigar ash tray, a gavel, and of course Christmas ornaments. If they don't like what you have done, they pride themselves in the "if you don't want to know, don't ask me" approach. It matters little that the new guy may be thinking way out of the box, or simply trying something new.

All of the older guys want folks to turn exactly like they do, and not get too far away from the way turning was done on the old treadle lathes.

I have preached about teaching the younger (and older) guys more about the craft and how to have fun than anyone in our club. It is like moving a 20 ton boulder up a hill with dental floss.

A way out there, exciting project might be a baby rattle. This could be for an upcoming family addition, and the interest usually goes to how many grandkids each of them have, some great grandkids, and how much fun they are.

I honestly think most of these guys come to the meeting because the don't have anything else to do, and it makes them feel like they are doing something.

In the past we have had some truly talented (maybe gifted) turners that were part of this organization. No longer so. Some just got tired of the constant competition of who spent the most money on tools, who had the most expensive lathe, etc. Sadly, a couple of the good guys have died of old age, and a couple of others are now incapable of turning due to loss of sight, arthritis, or shaking hands.

In the competitive atmosphere of who turns the best bowl on the most expensive lathe, they no longer feel welcome, even though they would be the best of teachers. I would love to see them come back as mentors, teachers, or just because they are great guys. But so far, no luck.

No club will survive unless it has new members, and the old farts in our club just aren't concerned about the welfare of the club at all. At 52, I am the youngest guy there, and unless one other guy comes in (he makes a meeting or two a year) I am always the youngest. When I am not there, the average age is probably right at retirement age.

Someway, they feel like they have "paid their dues" on the road of life, and that allows them to act as they want with little regard for others.

I don't have any answers, but I have tried through demonstrations, staying after the meetings for one on one questions, coming up with turning challenges, and being a rah-rah kind of guy for any new that brings ANYTHING they turn. Anything at all. But I can't move that rock by myself. And the old guys say, "well that's fine. Let Robert do it. He has the time and energy to put into it. I know myself if I had known I would be this busy when I retire I never would have done it. I am busier now than when I had a job".

This is usually followed by a nod of several approving heads, all affirming the reason they don't participate.

It is sad for me, because I have watched and tried to help this club grow. I was one of the first members back in '97, and it went from 5 to an all time high of about 80. I learned a lot, had a ton of fun, and we were really encouraging to each other and anyone that came along. It was fun. No longer so.

I doubt our club will actually go much farther. How sad, too. San Antonio, Texas is a city of 1.3 million with its included metropolitan areas and incorporated cities within itself. You would think we could stir up 20 - 25 good guys that really love turning, but apparently not.

Robert

- if the club

That's a shame. So far it hasn't happened to the club here in Spokane. We usually get 30-50 members per meeting. There's a show and tell table and some of the really good turners will critique a piece if asked. There's a demonstration of how to do something. Last month it was segmented bowls. Finally there's a wood raffle. We have an annual tool swap/flea market, a picnic, and a Xmas party. Of course there's some differences of opinion, there always are in any group. But so far they've stayed polite. The clubs new website is:

Note the page on mentoring.

To me, that's how we grow as craftsmen and how we learn better ways to do things. Often times, inspiration come from some lively and spirited disagreement.

Can you see the green eyed monster from there?

Robert

I agree completely. And this is what we have. The older guys (that have been turning for all of 3-5 years now) think of themselves as the old craftsmen.

The wide eyed 20 somethings go in there and hope for some tips, instruction, and some helpful commentary on their work, and there is little.

Our older fellas can't understand why anyone would want to turn much more than a bowl, cigar ash tray, a gavel, and of course Christmas ornaments. If they don't like what you have done, they pride themselves in the "if you don't want to know, don't ask me" approach. It matters little that the new guy may be thinking way out of the box, or simply trying something new.

-----------------------------giant snip-----------------

if I may be so bold as to make a suggestion - if you can find 3 or four like minded people, start your own club - don't compete with the old one, claim "geographic distance" or some other excuse. make it a welcoming place. set the attitude for the new club - have your meetings start somewhere that would make the "old" club guys uncomfortable - and for a while, choose challenges that will make them uncomfortable - start in your garage if you have to. Throw your energy into that which you enjoy. Make "way out" challenges - such as "articulated turnings", "most ephemeral", even political topics "electoral college segmented bowl" or maybe holiday with attitude "day after christmas ornament", boxing day redeux, best turning made entirely of matza, and so on. approach local art fairs and suggest that if the fair supplies free space, the club will set up and demonstrate - that will attract new members. Go to the riverwalk and have the "ritual throwing of the bad turnings into the river" event, or buy beer for "most bizarre" --- you get the idea.

Wow!!

Maybe it is just reading the newsgroup via Google is why it looks so dead. I thought my post never even made it to the newsgroup. What a bunch of discussion it triggered. Maybe I have to come up with another way to access the newsgroup. I just found this list of discussions on Google showing a new bunch of postings.

I had backed off from posting for awhile because there was a fellow on the group that was attacking me on nearly every post, even e-mailing me with nasty messages.

I've been reading the newsgroup pretty much since it started and have been posting to it for over 10 years. Apparently, it is not dead at all only the way in which I'm getting the messages.

Thanks all.

Fred Holder